Changer Studios
Changer Studios is shaping the future of the video creator ecosystem.
”Through our work with leading creators and experts from around the world, Changer has developed unique insights and expertise to help creators grow successful and sustainable careers.”
Find Changer:
Transcript
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:10):
Well, I am totally stoked to have you both here, the change of voice. Thank you so much for <laugh> for joining us on the Scrunch Influencer Marketing Show. Yes, I, we've known each other, God, I don't know, maybe like five, six plus years now. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, you know, we met you guys, I think when you were, you know, really heavily video orientated, but over, you know, over that time, you know, you guys are probably the first ones that I saw move into creators and supporting creators. So I'm absolutely stoked to have you both here today. Thanks for joining us.
Ant McCormack (00:47):
Thanks for having us. No worries. Good to hang.
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:50):
I know even virtually <laugh> over coffee and not cocktails, but that's okay.
Ant McCormack (00:56):
I know.
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:58):
So why don't we start with a bit of a background. So the people who tune in to the Influencer marketing show tend to be more brands, marketers, agencies so love to get a bit of both of your backgrounds introduce yourself and you know, how you got to actually starting Changer.
Ant McCormack (01:17):
<Laugh>. Dan, take this just point, point pointy may well love, it'll, I'll, I'll tell my story. You can tell yours. Yeah, sure. As I famously once said, what was it, Fred? I, I like to use words, so bear with me. No. Well, many That's,
Danielle (Scrunch) (01:34):
I'll sit back and relax. I'll sit back and relax. Yes. Sit best, relax.
Ant McCormack (01:37):
Danielle, you're on. I've got this. Come from like I've always, like, I've come from a, a marketing and, and creator background always. But the creators that are sort of talking about to start with were really, I started off in working in art galleries and independent art theater sort of a mishmash and in but also in marketing and helping those artists both across theater and visual artists market themselves, which, yep. The theater, the theater crew are really happy to market themselves cause they sell tickets to their shows. Artists the visual artists are selling out. So it's an interesting combination which is not true. They're not selling out. No. So
Danielle (Scrunch) (02:24):
I've sort, that is a, that is a legacy feeling, isn't it though?
Ant McCormack (02:28):
It's,
Danielle (Scrunch) (02:28):
I think that, I think a lot more creatives are realizing that money isn't such a bad thing now, which I like. Exactly.
Ant McCormack (02:36):
Yeah.
Danielle (Scrunch) (02:36):
Hope so. But you make, unless you create more
Ant McCormack (02:39):
That's right. You gotta make a living. It's, you know, it's one of those things and it's not, it's not a dirty thing. But that's what I sort of started. And then I worked around a bunch of marketing marketing roles in big retail and then sort of moved over into advertising and production. But always underpinning that was like working with like the creative side of things and like that, that sort of mix of creative and commercialization. And then yeah, sort of saw, you know, in the, in the video and production space that there was this thing online, like online content before going back 10 years or so. And it was really devalued. It was like, oh, you know, we'd spend a million bucks in just producing a TV commercial just to produce it, just to shoot the thing. And then it'd be like, oh, and there's this other bit, it's just for online.
(03:38):
And like, I'm like, ah, just for online <laugh>. Like that's the world. That's the world that's the audience. Mm. Whereas the million bucks went into like reaching, you know, the wrong people on tv, <laugh> 20,000 people or something on, on some crazy demographic. Couple hundred thousand people in Australia only. And, and so I sort of saw that and got, was getting a bit frustrated, but also saw the opportunity for the creator, like the, the online video space. And, and then met Fred at a very similar time. I think he was having a similar sort of journey and we sort of, he can stitch the rest of it back together, but we also saw like this online video creator space and saw that these guys are doing really amazing things, but lack the support and structure in the community to really go from you know, being devalued at the bottom of the food chain to actually, like, they, they're gonna blow up and do ama they're doing amazing things and sort of make that successful and sustainable. And we could probably have a part in that. Fred <laugh>.
Farhad Meher-Homji (04:42):
Yeah. Yeah.
Ant McCormack (04:43):
Well,
Farhad Meher-Homji (04:44):
Together, you know. Yeah.
Ant McCormack (04:45):
He's like, I concur <laugh>.
Farhad Meher-Homji (04:47):
I was, I was in media too, but I was in, I started in, in digital media, so while at university were my cousin and I, we started a, a digital agency based around what we thought would be sort of the future of, of web. And we were thinking, oh, people would need to manage a website, so how, but we built some software to help 'em do that online. And that was effectively cloud-based software when, you know, cloud-based software wasn't really a thing. So trying to convince people to, you know, put their trust in the, in the cloud was, was an interesting, interesting thing. But it, it did do well. And over time as we grew that, that became pretty interesting. And it grew into a pretty big digital agency. And I started to think to myself, I like this, but I don't, I'm not really in love with this.
(05:28):
I want to do more. And I would always like video. And it was, it was a big thing for me. And we started to steer the sort of the agency towards that. But I realized like, you know, we were actually building software and that was sort of the base of the company at that time, and it was, it was not the direction it was going in, so I thought, okay, let's spin out something else. And that's about the time we're sort of seeing the, the potential growth in the online video space, which was really interesting. And around 2010 stuff, we started dabbling in a bit more video. And over the next couple years we started building some ideas around what the future of video looked like. And that's when we started, I started chatting to a mutual friend about it, and he was like, oh, I know this other guy called aunt who's also really interested in this area. Why don't you guys get together and have a chat? And that's when we,
Ant McCormack (06:11):
We, we can name check. That guy
Danielle (Scrunch) (06:13):
Can name
Farhad Meher-Homji (06:15):
Checking.
Ant McCormack (06:16):
That's
Danielle (Scrunch) (06:17):
Fantastic. Nice.
Ant McCormack (06:18):
Mark. So we Awesome. We, yeah, we both, we both knew Ben we didn't know each other and we were having a very similar conversation with Ben saying like, there's this awesome stuff going on. There's
Danielle (Scrunch) (06:28):
Opportunity, like everyone who I know, who knows Ben's story, <laugh>,
Ant McCormack (06:35):
Ben and I, we're, we're drinking at a wonderful bar at the end a lot. We kept, we kept calling them meetings yeah. And, and I think
Danielle (Scrunch) (06:44):
Strategy session.
Ant McCormack (06:44):
Yeah. I dunno what. Yeah. And then Ben invited Fred to, to a meeting and we had to beer and then next day we had a coffee and I think two days later we were working together. Like Yeah, it was rock and roll like
Danielle (Scrunch) (06:58):
<Laugh>. That's so good. But, so then talk to me, you said, you said the words 2010 and online video taking off, but I'm like, it's 2022, and I, I think still think there, there are people that are just getting their heads around video where what have you seen happen in the last 10 years? How did you spot it back then?
Farhad Meher-Homji (07:20):
Oh gosh. Okay. So I guess
Ant McCormack (07:23):
This
Danielle (Scrunch) (07:23):
Is gonna be a long chat.
Ant McCormack (07:24):
I answer that really simple. We we're just pure visionaries,
Farhad Meher-Homji (07:27):
<Laugh>,
Danielle (Scrunch) (07:28):
<Laugh>. I would expect nothing less
Ant McCormack (07:31):
<Laugh>. Yeah, no. If only no, Fred can answer it better than that. I'm,
Farhad Meher-Homji (07:36):
Yeah. Well, I guess it was sort of like when we were talking about, you know, when we started in, in cloud-based software, the way we looked at it, it was like, you could see that people move towards like this convergence and this collaboration element. They, they looked towards sort of how to, you know, the next logical step. It seems like that that seemed, just, seemed like this would be the next logical step. Also there was such, such great talent, you could just see like some of the online creators, even though it, it's very early days as such great talent. And you could just see that things were moving towards as a just digital distribution of, of con of content and what that would mean. I think what we both saw was that meant there would be a whole lot of really impressive talented individuals coming on with these new platforms and new technologies who were gonna be able to amplify their voices. Back then the applic amplification wasn't brilliant. Mm-Hmm. but we could tell just knowing where the technology goes, that it was gonna get better and better and more engaging, and that would give bigger networks to run for its money. So we sort of see, to see that. Then I guess the tricky thing was convincing everybody else
Danielle (Scrunch) (08:32):
Yeah, that was
Farhad Meher-Homji (08:34):
Actually happening as well. Which, which wasn't the easiest thing, especially in, in the early days. So we actually ended up, when we first started working with a sort of more commercial division where we worked with brands more actively to create online video content for the brands using some of these new methodologies because mm-hmm. That was an easier bridge than trying to get straight into the, into that other space. And that actually ended up, up working out pretty well because, you know, we were bringing, you know, new methodologies and new ideas to brands and got, you know, their content more engaging and more geared for the online space. Yeah. and that actually ended up being quite a, you know, a, a, a good thing for us. And I think the next step from there was like, okay, well how do we really get into the creative space? And that's sort of where change really started to find its feet. And change as it is now, is designed to help elevate the next generation of creative talent online. Right. We provide resources and education and, you know, funding in some cases to help creators get to the next level, elevate their channels, build businesses around, you know, their content creation. And that's the predominantly the, the, the core element of what we do now. But yeah, that's where it effectively all started from.
Danielle (Scrunch) (09:41):
And do you sort of work exclusively with video creators? So, you know, I guess when I hear video creator, I think YouTube, is that kind of the crux of it? Or are there channels that I don't know about that I should know about?
Farhad Meher-Homji (09:54):
Hmm. Well, yeah, predominantly it is, it's video creators. Yeah. And, and the YouTube is, is still, I guess in many ways the, the gold standard of, of that type of video. And now it's funny cause they call YouTube long form. We used to call it short form. And now, you know, short form is like TikTok and, and, and, and it's very different. But yeah, look, we, we've done got online video creators we work at very extensive with, with YouTube. But now with all the other platforms we do look at everything, we look at it more holistically because for most creators, they use multiple platforms in different ways in order to create that engagement with the audience.
Danielle (Scrunch) (10:27):
Yeah, okay. And that's really interesting because, so I guess in my world so I probably have a background more in what we call influencer marketing. And influencer marketing is still so whilst they've jumped on TikTok, but very heavily rooted in Instagram as a platform so very heavily image based. Yes. Moving into sort of that short form video content now but also heavily relying on sponsored posts as means of making money. And as you were talking then, I love what you said around, you know, basically your unique value proposition. What you do is help these creators actually go from content creator to building a business. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, I wonder, like, do you, when you talk to creators, are they all super on board with that? Do they know this? Do they see the value? Like what's your experience with creators and the, the bridge from going to I create cool videos to, I'm a business owner.
Farhad Meher-Homji (11:25):
I, I think this has been some of the most interesting things about the creator space. I mean, that's for us, I think for most, you know a lot of people they find it frustrating is that creators are very varied, right? They're not like, you know, someone who has a startup or who think of themselves as a startup entrepreneur. Like, you know, they have a set path. They're in it to build a product and build a business around that product. Whereas a lot of creators, they start because they, they like the idea of something. They like the idea of creating around something and, and sharing a passion or an interest. And then getting them to think of it sometimes as a, as a business or thinking themselves as entrepreneurs, it can be a tricky thing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, some creators are great and they're just sort of straight on board with that.
(12:03):
But other creators, you know, it takes a while to get, to get into that, into that that thinking, but also taking that leap into that entrepreneurial thinking can also sort of change their mindset. They go from making it about the content creation to then making it about a business. And that can create issues as well. So there's a whole bunch of sort of subtle things we look at or balances we try to create in order to make that pathway as smooth as possible. But with every creator there is a pathway, pathway to entrepreneurship. It just varies from creator. I think an will probably agree with that.
Ant McCormack (12:35):
Yeah, a hundred percent. Like every creator can essentially be a founder of, of like a, a brilliant, not just media company, but like really like direct to consumer brand company. Right. But whether, whether they want to be or that's their best skillset is, and like, so it's not just like there's no, and that's what's really tricky about this space is it's not just a, like a creator is X or Y or X Yeah. It's not even three buckets. You can't even, you know, so it's, the nuances are quite interesting. And then going back to like the start, like do creators even think as themselves of entrepreneurs? Like I, I, you know, I had many conversations with YouTube creators with millions and millions of subscribers, and they've got, you know, 20 people working for them, for them. And it's like, I'm just a YouTuber. Yeah. Okay. Like, <laugh>,
Danielle (Scrunch) (13:24):
I wish I was just a YouTuber, if that's the, you know
Ant McCormack (13:28):
Yeah. And we, we, we run like workshops all, all over the world. A lot of them in partnership with YouTube. And one of the early ones, I'm trying to think back what year, maybe 2016 or so, we, we ran one called Creative Entrepreneurship, like for YouTubers. And like, it was the hardest sell to get it in there. We had, like, we had Jim Louderback come to a, like he was in Australia, he got him to come along and talk that like, you know, he is to, at the time newly announced GM a bit gone. And a couple other really like entrepreneurial YouTube creators. And it's kinda of like, oh, hang on. Like people don't identify as entrepreneurs as like, the creators aren't really seeing that yet, but we should still show them that the opportunity exists and, and just figure out how we can package that up in a way that they can understand where they fit within this space. So yeah, it's fascinating.
Danielle (Scrunch) (14:21):
Yeah. Well it's, it's really interesting. So as I've done more research into what we're now calling the creator economy, you know, they are saying they're lumping 50 million creators into that bucket. But I'm like, well, I'm not sure if that's the right way to look at it, because you are, you're spot on. Most of those creators think of themselves as creators. They don't think about themselves as the business owner or the founder or the c e o or the whatever. So I think it's really interesting when yes, absolutely you've gotta open people's eyes to what's possible, but you also have to understand that the majority of them probably are gonna be on board that you're serving kind of a, a subsection of that market.
Farhad Meher-Homji (15:01):
Yeah, exactly. And look, and one of the things we're, we're sort of very well known for is our accelerated programs, which we pioneered, we actually pioneered Google years and years ago where we ran the first programs in the world for credit to basically help them accelerate their growth. Not just looking at, you know, how to grow their channels, but how to grow their businesses. And we sort of developed this process that helped them better understand not just, like I said, not their channels, but like what they can achieve with creative businesses. And exposing them to some of the expert experts that aunt mentioned. And once they sort of see the landscape and you give it to them in a sort of structured way and say, look, these are the opportunities that sit in front of you, that's when they can look at it and go, oh, yeah, like this now makes sense to me. I can understand where I might want to take this as a business, but I can still be, you know, a great creator and still make great content. It's not about sacrificing one for the other. So, you know, like every creator will have a pathway, but it, it is interesting because they all sort of choose slightly different ways to get there.
Danielle (Scrunch) (15:56):
Yeah. And I think it's interesting, you know because we do a lot and, you know, you guys have plenty of business owner friends you know, it's, I find it really interesting when you think of the word creator. Like oftentimes you do think of just creators putting things out online, and a lot of times they're focused on great content and building their followers and kind of then hoping that the money or the sponsorships will flow on. And what we're talking about is, you know, creating this business. And it's almost like I look at other people that I know who are more business owners. And I think, you know, that's the cr you need to have that creative mindset and, and really understand that it's about putting something cool value in your niche out in the world. But the audience size is less and less the thing that matters.
(16:38):
I mean, absolutely, if you have a million followers, perhaps you're going to be doing well <laugh>, you know, lots of opportunities. But depending on what your goals are as a creator or a business owner, it might not be the be all and end all. You know, if you have like a, a revenue figure, you just wanna replace your full-time salary or whatever it is, you don't always need the million followers. It is actually about understanding what products you can actually create, how you can serve that audience. It's, I think that there's like a real opportunity for creators and even businesses as creators, like to actually look at things differently now.
Farhad Meher-Homji (17:11):
That's right. And it, end of the day comes down to value creation. And this is one of the things we try to teach all the creators. Cause we work with emerging creators. That's, you know, typically creators who are like that 5,000 or a hundred thousand subscriber mark we're really developing their, their, or they're still developing on their journey, but they think they need to get to that million subscriber mark before it's all worthwhile. And that's not true at all. I mean, you know, we, we've seen tons of small creators, you know, with small numbers of traditionally small numbers of subscribers do very well because they're very good at creating value, right? Yeah. And where in this period where you need to create specific value for the audience in order for them to give you their attention. And that's the, that's the, effectively the, the currency we're dealing in is attention, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So how do we get that? So if you provide 'em with enough value and you get their attention and you can connect with them in the way that, you know, things like YouTube let you connect with your audience, you are gonna create something really meaningful. And when you do that, then effectively you can own that audience. And then, you know, even a few thousand people giving you, you know, a few dollars each can be, can be extremely valuable for, for a creator.
Danielle (Scrunch) (18:13):
Yeah. Well it's, it's really interesting because I so being in this space, I have stopped watching <laugh>. So because there is so much content coming at me, I've stopped watching anything. And you know, where this is goes up on YouTube, so now I'm on YouTube more than ever. And the other day I saw Phoebe from Little Gray Box, a video she put up, and I know she's a co-host now, isn't she? On the creator generation, which is so cool. She was like one of the first, well, we thought she was an influencer back then, and she was one of the first creators that we worked with and her, and it's Matt, isn't it? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yep. so cool. And, but it's really interesting because, because I've seen her content for so long and I've not really been consuming it. But I know her worked with her, seen her on your show, and then it came up, this video came up and it's like, I don't have 20 minutes to watch a video, but this video came up and I was like, oh, cool.
(19:09):
What's she doing these days? Watched it. And I watched the whole video and I was like, I'm going to that place. That's awesome. Like, so it was so cool. And I know like they have come such a long way over the last even just, you know, few years. I know that they've like, yeah, really grown heaps. But it's just really interesting that, you know, what value do you provide an audience and how do you communicate that? And, and that is the thing that gets people's attention. And, and it's really interesting, like, you know, she doesn't know this, but through her content, she's building a relationship with me where, so now I trust her recommendations and I will sit there and I will watch the video. Cause I wanna know what it's all about. And I think that that's, you know, something creators really need to, it's not just the content, it is that connection with the audience and it's that community that they're building.
Farhad Meher-Homji (19:58):
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.
Ant McCormack (20:00):
Yeah, baby knows,
Farhad Meher-Homji (20:02):
Does shes,
Danielle (Scrunch) (20:03):
She,
Ant McCormack (20:06):
She's, she's not manipulating you. She's genuinely, oh,
Danielle (Scrunch) (20:09):
I'm happy to manipulated
Ant McCormack (20:10):
Relationship with her audience. And you know, like those two are great example that husband and wife create a team, but they're on many platforms creating content, not just on YouTube, Instagram getting izing, TikTok, but like a lot of their businesses also like their, their website. And then creating travel con like content for tourism bodies all over the world. So they all, it's symbiotic. It's, it's like a real ecosystem business. And like, when you look at their YouTube subscriber numbers, I haven't gotten in front of me, sorry, Phoebe. It's about 60,000, maybe a bit more 70. And that, that's like, that's a business. It's a full-time Oh yeah. Business. So
Danielle (Scrunch) (20:54):
Yeah. Well, and that's really interesting too, like talking about the ecosystem and you mentioned, you know, yes, they're on YouTube, but they're also on other social channels like Instagram, TikTok, but then website and then creating content for tourism bodies. So, you know, one thing we always hear about is the algorithm <laugh>. And you know, and, and I always say to someone, you know, cause a lot of business owners, they're like, what do I, you know, how do I get more followers on Instagram? I'm like, Instagram isn't a business model, <laugh>, you know, and it's you know, owning your audience and owning that community and owning that relationship, I find a really interesting conversation that not a lot of people have. What's your perspective on that and actually owning your ability to create a business?
Farhad Meher-Homji (21:39):
My perspective, perspective on owning an audience? Is that, is that what you mean?
Danielle (Scrunch) (21:42):
Yeah, like, like how, like, you know, is it, do all I do is have a YouTube channel and hope that you know, that people come back or, you know, do you give advice on websites, on email lists? Like how do you talk to creators around building out a business and owning your audience?
Farhad Meher-Homji (21:57):
Yeah, and, and like you said, it's, it's a good topic because the idea of audience ownership is becoming really I important. I mean, these platforms are really great. They let you put your content out to the entire world, but often they will limit the way in which you can communicate and engage with your audience. Like YouTube, TikTok, all that. You have limited ways in which you interact with, with that audience. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So owning your audience is basically being able to have that cl even closer relationship. And, you know, that's why sort of, I think a lot of email newsletters have come back and, and, and into fashion in a big way because, you know, there's direct communication. You can communicate with them pretty easily. They can get a lot of specific information from you. So this idea of audience of ownership is, is getting bigger. There are more tools available to the credit in the credit economy that lets you own your audience better. In fact, in on, on our podcast, we had a chat to Patreon, I think it was last week, still Harari from Patreon. Nice. Yeah,
Danielle (Scrunch) (22:50):
I'll link it in the show
Farhad Meher-Homji (22:51):
Notes. <Laugh>. Yeah. Thank you, <laugh>. Anytime <laugh>. And we were talking about audience ownership being a big thing because a platform like Patreon, which is effectively a membership based platform, is otherwise they say like, the only fans for creators, you know, was an interesting way thing, right? Was it lets you basically create content put on the platform, but then members can have that more direct relationship with you and you can have that more direct relationship with your, with your members, and effectively are more able to own that audience because of that connection you ha have to them because they're Yeah. Basically. So, so so much closer to you. So it is a bigger area. It's an area where we do help creator understand more. Like you said, every creator's a different journey. Everyone will approach it in a different way. But this idea of being closer to the audience and engaging with them more, connecting with them more, being able to communicate them with them more clearly and directly. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is a big area. We, we really are pushing heavily into, because like you said, there's more and more content being thrown to people, the algorithms of serving people, content left, right, and center. If you don't connect and, and have that audience close to you yeah. You can lose out on a lot of opportunities.
Danielle (Scrunch) (23:57):
Yeah. And you know, Patreon's a really interesting one. I I've known one about it for a while, but never really engaged with it. And never used it to support anybody <laugh>. But it was really interesting. My partner is a patron of someone of a YouTuber. I don't know if it's like a Mr. Who's the boss or one of those guys. And like, he literally sat me down one day and it's like, look, this is my name at the end of, at the end of the video. And I'm like, oh, people are into this. People are really into this. I'm like, you, you pay money to this guy who makes YouTube videos every month, and you wait and look at your name at the end. I'm like, this huge. Like, people love this, you know, we don't wanna turn on the TV anymore and just see some news presenters giving us the daily updates. Like, we wanna support people who we actually care about the content that they create and the appetite's there. I think that, you know, creators sometimes feel a little bit like, oh, will people actually be into this? Does my community really care about what I'm doing? But they do, like, people are obsessed with it.
Farhad Meher-Homji (25:02):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Ant McCormack (25:04):
I mean, it all comes down to value exchange, right? Like your partner gets value from seeing his name up in lights on his favorite creators channel, right. But yeah. And you know, things like Paton and or memberships or, or, and just like the community, like it can go as deep as, as you want. Like, you know, those patons can like, at a certain tier potentially impact the content. They can be involved in writing it, right? Like they can get special access to content that no one else can get. So they can be really close and invested in it. Sometimes it's just purely, they, they want to make sure the lights get kept on and their favorite videos come out every week, month, or year or whatever it might be. But then, and that's valuable as well, right? Like if, if your favorite TV show's been canceled by Netflix which is probably most people this year Yeah. <Laugh>.
Danielle (Scrunch) (25:57):
Cause they,
Ant McCormack (25:58):
They, they do season one of everything. Like, imagine if you could put your hand, hand in your pocket and put a couple of bucks in a month and everyone did that around the world. Like you'd, you'd be probably get your show back up and, and you'd be happy and you'd feel more invested in it and you'd tell everyone else about it. So mm-hmm. <Affirmative> there's a lot that brands can learn from this type of thing as well, right? Like Yeah. That value exchange beyond the product exchange. Sorry,
Farhad Meher-Homji (26:22):
That's, that's spot on ad because that's something that I think a lot of brands and a lot of traditional, you know, agencies and producers didn't see was they keep thinking about, you know, entertainment value, right? But they didn't see the true value that all the other types of value that like YouTubers and creators create, right? Like relational value, which is like, you know, why logging is so, so big, or even like you talked about your, your partner being able to have his name on the screen. It's just such a, it's a small thing, but it's so meaningful, right? That's what it comes down to is like, what, what is meaningful to an audience. It doesn't have to be like, oh, I have to be blown away by over the top special effects, which is why, you know, things like Quibi may have failed is because they always thought if we bring production value to it people, that's what people are after. But it's not about that. There's a whole bunch of other elements to it that are, that are so important. And, you know, if brands better understood that, I think they'd have a much better or much easier time in understanding how they can align with creators to create, you know, better connections with their audiences.
Danielle (Scrunch) (27:20):
Well, and so there, therein is my question to you, because I have been banging on for the last few years about it's more than just a sponsored post. Mm. You know, what do you, what do you see the future of brands collaborating with creators? Like, how do you think it needs,
Farhad Meher-Homji (27:41):
Sorry, Danny, did I dropped You dropped out. You did hear question, question. You said that. Yeah.
Danielle (Scrunch) (27:46):
That's all right. So how do you think brands will collaborate differently with creators in the future? Do you, because I I keep saying it's, it's not a sponsored post anymore. We have to have a deeper relationship, but, you know, I think it's super easy to just gift a product to somebody or to pay a sponsored post fee and say, I'll have these X deliverables. How do you think we need to think about things differently?
Farhad Meher-Homji (28:11):
Yeah. Well, it's actually a question. We, every time we do an accelerator or a program, we always ask the creators like, what has your experience been with, with brands and what are the issues you've faced? What do you like and dislike? And it's, it's interesting over the years hearing how one, how things have developed. One is obviously brands are a lot more comfortable working with creators now. And you know, it's becoming a little bit more professional creators understand that they have to be more professional. And I think that's creating better results for, for brands. But it is interesting looking at the models develop, right? There are different ways to do it. A lot of brands came to it in a very traditional way, here's what you wanted to say, a, B, and C say this, and that'll be great. And I think they are realizing now that looking at the way the creator interacts with our audience and what the audience values is a very important part in creating some meaningful conversion for that brand, right?
(29:01):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if they don't think about that, then all they're gonna do is have this sort of very plasticy approach to the audience, and it's not gonna get any effect. But if they let the creator guide them and say, Hey, look, this is what we think will work. I think that's, that's, that's an important vet. And we are telling all the creators who go through our programs like, don't be afraid to tell the brands that you might have a better idea for what might work with your audience. Because that's what you've been doing for all these years, is developing this relationship with the, with your audience. And you know what they like, you know what they dislike. Feel free to tell the brand this. And we've had creators we've worked with who are some of the best in the world, and they took this approach earlier on. They were like, oh, you know, they'd pick a big VPN would come to them and say, we'd want you to read the script. And 99% of creators would, would. And, you know, one creator we worked with the internet historian who's an absolute brilliant creator,
Danielle (Scrunch) (29:46):
Legend, yep.
Farhad Meher-Homji (29:47):
<Laugh>. And he was like, I don't think this would work like this. How about I set it up differently and I make basically this, this character based around your, your p n and we, we take it really into left field. Like it was really out there, crazy kind of stuff. And to their credit, the brand looked at it and go, you know what? I think you, you know your audience best and we'll do it. And it was a phenomenal campaign. It was entertaining. In fact, most of the comments were about the ad, right? About, about the ad in it, it was about the integration That's so cool. And the video itself, right? And it went on to do tremendously well. And he actually created this character for the brand, but just kept it coming back in future episodes. And it built such a good connection. But they just listened to that, they listened to the creator and they knew what kind of value the creator was generating for the audience. Mm-Hmm. What the audience valued. And by doing that, they had a, a tremendously popular campaign. And, you know, we've, we've replicated that a bit in, in, in other videos and it has also done extremely well. So yeah, I think that's the future is just basically letting the creator sort of guide you a little bit in terms of what that audience will connect with. Because if you listen to that and you're willing to experiment a little bit with that, I think you're gonna have a much better outcome.
Danielle (Scrunch) (30:56):
And I think what's really interesting for the creator is, and that's longevity for their business. So it's like, it wasn't just that I read the script, I got paid and that's done. I actually understood what my audience wanted, created something awesome, it performed, and now they're coming back. But <laugh>, but yeah.
Ant McCormack (31:14):
Yeah. Well, <laugh>
Farhad Meher-Homji (31:17):
Cut out again there. Sorry
Danielle (Scrunch) (31:19):
About my shocking internet.
Ant McCormack (31:22):
But I mean, I, I like the thing is what we're, what we're saying, and I wholeheartedly agree, it's still cha it's a, it's challenging for brands in the current way. Most brands in the current way they work, like, yeah. So it does require, like, this approach does require a bit of a shift where like more effort upfront in due diligence on, on the creator and selecting a creator and, and aligning with them, but the, the, the return on, and so like, the objectives should be different. Instead of getting like x number of creators doing so many ad reads, and we'll record it based on like, ooh, like potential reach based on their surface level numbers. Let's look at it from like, okay we're gonna get longer term impact in conversions but also like looking to build relationships then, right? Like, you know, talking about <inaudible> story and there as an example, like that's then like a, a very aligned brand when we're talking, nor BPN and Norman, like the particular character that for us talking about.
(32:19):
But that keeps coming back. And then like, you know, there's like returning value for the, the, the creator, the audience and the brand, and that that's like, you know, a beautiful thing, right? Every, everyone wins. Like that's, so it's, it's harder to, it takes a little bit more effort upfront, but the returns are greater. So like, it just depends, like, and instead of, you know, doing more, maybe you, you do less with more impact or so it's just, it's a bit of a mindset shift as well. Like, it's not just about what us as a brand wants to get across, it's like what, like the creator is gonna have, like, gonna have needs in in communicating to their audience, and the audience has needs to get something out of that. And it won't serve your purpose as a brand if you don't fit those other two needs as well. So yeah. It's just a bit of, a bit of a flip, but not too, too dramatic. Like you'll, you get what you want out of it. So that's what counts, right?
Danielle (Scrunch) (33:15):
Yeah. Well, and I, well, and I think it's interesting because historically a lot of the, the bra, so collaborations between creators and brands or influencers and brands has largely fallen to somebody who's in a dual role. They're a, a marketing manager, social media manager, PR person, and, you know, they're in the marketing team, but they're wearing a lot of hat. And it's interesting where we were doing a, a little study this year, and now if you look up influencer marketing professional on LinkedIn, there's like 50,000 of them <laugh>, you know, who are now in dedicated roles for, you know, influencer marketing or working with partnerships or creators. And I think that that is where we will see the shift, because I just don't, I think you're right, like the time investment upfront to really do that due diligence, understand the creator, you know, not give the exact same brief to 50 creators, but actually talk to each one and go, you know, this is what we had in mind.
(34:15):
These are the guiderails, but what do you think, you know, do you wanna come back to us with some ideas on what might work best with your audience? You know, that is, that's time consuming, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But my hope is that now people are in dedicated roles, they're going to have that time and flexibility to invest in it as a space, because I think we've proven it works. You know, I understand that it was incorporated into marketing because it was a new channel and we weren't all a hundred percent sure about this influencer marketing or creator thing. But I think we've very clearly proven that you know, but as a means of getting to a consumer and creating a relationship and, and selling product, it actually does work.
Farhad Meher-Homji (34:54):
Yeah. And you're absolutely right. In fact, we have a division and changer now that, you know, we work with some creators to helping them with their brand deals and, and brand integrations. Mm. It's a smaller division, but the reason it's small is that we wanna spend more time with the creator and the brands to better understand how to make that work properly. Right? Yeah. And it's been really good because spending that extra bit of time, rather than trying to get like, you know, a thousand creators on the books, it's like just working with the couple and working with some really good brands. We've found that on both ends, it's worked really nicely. The brand's got exactly sort of what they're after. We think about the strategy a little bit more and, and put it into place. But I think that whole also helps educate the brands generally in what they can do going forward mm-hmm. And I think more brands will have, as more companies sort of do that, hopefully that the practice becomes more prevalent they'll understand that creative, creative space better and can create more meaningful integrations with creators.
Danielle (Scrunch) (35:40):
Yeah. That's so good. So then my last question to you will flip back to the creator side. So kids now, in high school, in primary school, when they're asked, what do you wanna be when you grow up? They say, I wanna be a YouTuber. I wanna be a creator. Is it too late to break into being creator if I quit my job today and said I wanna be a creator? Is it too late? Or what do you think the future looks like?
Ant McCormack (36:07):
Well, I
Farhad Meher-Homji (36:09):
Don't think so at all. I think it is, it's the best time you could possibly ever wanna be a creator, but I can You want to jump in first? I I'll go after you.
Ant McCormack (36:16):
You, oh, there's, there's, there's like, there's so much to unpack here. It's like, this is a, like, it's one, it's, it's, we are not in a bad place when, you know, more kids wanna say they wanna be YouTuber than any other job in the world. Like, pretty happy with where, where we're at as a, as a business for that sort of thing. But you know, there's so much to that. And it's like, you are Daniel, you, you're and yourself for living proof of that. Imagine like, just those skills being developed while, you know, as you were, you know, graduating from high school, university or whatever. Like being able to understand and think and create like a creator mm-hmm. Is gonna be such a useful, valuable skill. Like oh, totally. Whatever you do in, in life and business. But then to, to go down the road as a a, as a creator or as an influencer.
(37:09):
And, you know, they're pretty interchangeable these days. Depending on who you talk to. We could spend a whole podcast episode debate. Yeah, exactly. But like the opportunities like it now, is it, it's, it's, we're still only on tip the iceberg of like this space becoming like really professionalized and, and valued and, and the opportunities that kind of lock, like, you know, it, there's 10 years ago there was no one to look forward, look, look ahead to, and say, well, that's a path I could follow. I can be become a full-time YouTuber. That was like, you would've been laughed at, right? Like, yeah, there was nobody, now there's hundreds of them, thousands of them. You can see those, those pathways are being built. The, the businesses are investing time and capital into it. The brands are understanding the business models are sort of starting to, to work themselves out.
(38:04):
The platforms are becoming more sophisticated. So yeah, it's kinda like it, this is very, it's still very early days. So it's like, and, and it's not just about the creator either, like the, whether someone on camera or the writing the script or whatever. There's so much more behind, you know, you said the beautiful term, the creator economy. There's so much behind it that is yet to be realized or, and is being built, like editors, scriptwriters, social media managers, business managers, CEOs, direct to consumer products, you name it. There's so much that's behind these things. Platform development, engineering, so like this creator economy that is, is, is sort of, it's, it's the wild western, but it's really sort of, you know, building. It's
Danielle (Scrunch) (38:53):
Exciting. It's cool.
Ant McCormack (38:55):
I'm getting Gibb. Great.
Danielle (Scrunch) (38:57):
<Laugh>.
Farhad Meher-Homji (38:57):
And it's what you said before, Danielle, like one of the big things about it is that is the sophistication of the platforms, these algorithms, right? People think of like, often the thing is, oh, the algorithms are against me. But actually the algorithms are pretty much what makes it new creators able to jump onto the platform. The algorithms from TikTok, the algorithm from YouTube, they're developing, they're very, very good at uncovering new content and putting it in front of people who wanna watch it. And the whole idea of all of these algorithms is to give the viewers what they want, right? Yeah. And the, the more sophisticated they get, the better they're gonna find a funnel link, different niches of creators to different viewers. So the sophistication is something that's, that's actually really good and providing so many more new creators with opportunities to get in front of the right audience.
(39:38):
But then the other part, and what Anne mentioned is the support. Now, you know, 10 years ago when we were trying to do this, there was no support for creators. There was very little. And it was very, very hard. Like people didn't understand it. There were no revenue models. You know, you almost laughed at when you said you were a YouTube full time. But now, like you said, it, it's an aspirational element there. And there are companies all around the world that are building out the creator economy that are there to help support creators and give them infrastructure and help in the way like startups have that help now. Mm-Hmm. To, to make them, you know, larger and better and more viable. And I think that is very exciting. It means that there will be a more not linear pathway, but a, a better or easier pathway for those who want to be creators.
Danielle (Scrunch) (40:19):
Yeah. And it's, it's really interesting that you talk about it sort of parallel to startups in the startup world and the startup industry. Cuz I have a really hard time not thinking about creators as business owners. I think like, holy shit, you just went audience first and value first, and you've got like this whole world of, you know, product opportunities, revenue opportunities, like oh, and the infrastructure that is available now. I'm like, it is like starting a business now where we've got, you know, you can whip up a website in an afternoon. You've got all of your supporting tools. Like you're right, like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, like, everything was, you know, a server in a room and it was so hard to do everything. Like everything's super easy to start a business now. I I kind of love the parallels between those two. Yeah. And the, and being part of this movement of the creator economy is, is really exciting.
Farhad Meher-Homji (41:12):
Absolutely.
Ant McCormack (41:13):
Hell yeah.
Danielle (Scrunch) (41:14):
Well, you two have been absolutely phenomenal. Thank you for spending your time with the scrunch community today. I really appreciate it.
Farhad Meher-Homji (41:24):
No, thanks for having us.
Ant McCormack (41:26):
Thanks. Talk about this all day long.
Danielle (Scrunch) (41:28):
All.
