Allison Brown
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Allison Brown is the Senior Social Media & Influencer Marketing Manager at Bulletproof 360.
“As an Influencer Marketing Manager, I oversee the influencer marketing efforts to drive brand awareness, content creation, and sales conversions. In previous roles, I also oversaw and executed all social media marketing channels for the brand.
I completed a BS in Business Administration from The Ohio State University with a specialization in marketing. During my time at Ohio State, I was a member of the Honors Cohort and the Mortar Board Honor Society programs.
I currently reside in Dallas, Texas. I am a certified personal trainer and nutritionist. I am involved in the Dallas fitness community through Fitness Ambassadors. My passion for health and wellness extends beyond my roles within companies and is truly a huge part of my life.”
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Transcript
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:09):
Alison, thank you so much for being here on the Scrunch Influencer Marketing podcast. It's so lovely to have you. Now you have been an influencer marketing for quite a while and have you even been awarded for your contribution to the industry? So I would love first, first up if you could tell us a little bit about your career journey, how you got to being the influencer marketing manager at Bulletproof through 60 and what that journey was like and how you got into influencer marketing.
Allison Brown (00:41):
That sounds great. Well first of all, thank you so much for having me <laugh>. I'm really excited to chat with you today and it was quite a journey, honestly, <laugh> to get to Bulletproof. But I'll keep keep it to the condensed version. <Laugh>. my total influencer marketing journey started at a company called Kodiak Cakes and actually are a pancake company, not a cake company but definitely in the health food C P G space. And that's where I started about seven years ago actually, with kind of the idea to run an ambassador program. And that just completely turned into influencer marketing at the time was a buzzword and everyone was throwing it around. PR agencies were saying they wanted to do influencer marketing for us. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And since I was already running pr, it just kind of made sense to start doing influencer marketing in-house. So we really started with brand awareness, a lot of product gifting, a ton of influencer events back then and just grew it into this amazing program.
(01:40):
I love what I built at Kodiak Cakes. It was so much fun and it really helped set me in on a trend of staying in health foods and doing influencer marketing. So I went to Factor 75 next and was doing social media and influencer marketing there and then they were acquired. So I actually moved to a beauty company called Mini Luxe. And so briefly got to be out of the health food space and kind of work with beauty influencers, which was really fun and just a totally different group of people to be working with. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's about the time I also started doing some freelance influencer marketing. So I was able to work with even more companies and building more programs and eventually found my way to Bulletproof where I've been for going on about six months now, which is really exciting.
Danielle (Scrunch) (02:24):
Wow. And so what kind of influencer marketing do they do at Bulletproof? Is it always on affiliate campaigns? What's it look like at Bulletproof?
Allison Brown (02:35):
We have a lot going on <laugh>. We actually switched from the time I started, which was basically all brand awareness looking at earned media value to now we're more on the growth and e-commerce team and we solely focused on how we can drive ROI and revenue from our influencers. So really took a big pivot, 180 switch from brand awareness to now growth. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> <affirmative> and we run a lot of campaigns. We have evergreen campaigns running at all times. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then we have specific product launch campaigns because Bulletproof is constantly launching new products, which is super exciting <laugh>. And so we get to run fun campaigns around that as well. And we do have some affiliate marketing and we're hoping to kind of build that into our influencer program. And then we have a brand ambassador program that's outside of influencer as well. So we really try and hit on all the bases.
Danielle (Scrunch) (03:25):
Yeah, and I love what you said there around switching from brand awareness to ROI because I think that there's still a lot of debate in the industry as to whether influencers really do drive sales outcomes which they do <laugh>. But I wondered if you could touch a little bit on how the strategy changes. So how, how you actually interact with an influence and what you get them to do when it goes from being a brand awareness strategy to an an ROI or sales outcome.
Allison Brown (03:55):
Definitely. I think for us it really changed from looking strictly at the numbers and looking at, you know, how many impressions can they draw more so looking at the macro influencer to kind of getting nitty gritty and looking at the micro to mid-tier influencer because the engagement rate for them is typically much higher. Mm-Hmm. And it's almost more looking at the trustworthiness of that influencer. So we found that the smaller the influencer are typically more trustworthy. So they do generally lead to a higher click-through rate, more conversions and also kind of looking at more long-term relationships in that as well. So where we were just trying to drive impressions, we were kind of able to do a ton of one-offs and then when we're trying to do conversions and look at roi, it pays better for us and for them to do a three month, six month partnership so that the same audience is seeing the product over and over again and we're just priming them to finally click the link and finally, you know, buy the product because this influencer has been going on about it for six months. <Laugh>.
Danielle (Scrunch) (04:57):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's super interesting as well. Cuz people often ask, you know, what, who should I work with? You know, should it be the micro, the macro, the power? But I think, you know, you guys have really nailed figuring out who drives the most conversions for you. And I love that you talked about the trustworthiness scale. Is that something that you kind of look at the influence, look at every influencer, like one-on-one and kind of figure that out? Or do you take more of a mass approach? Do you use analytics tools? Like how do you actually get to have been built such a successful program?
Allison Brown (05:35):
We look a lot at audience and metrics first of all. So looking at, you know, their engagement rate overall, are people even interacting with their posts that's, you know, a dead giveaway right off the bat, whether we should work with somebody or not. Yeah. And then if the product will resonate, I think that that's a really important component. And a big pivot for us was looking at influencers where, you know, coffee fits very naturally into their feed. It's not, you know, the fitness person who has never talked about a thing that they eat or drink ever. It's the person who's occasionally like, ah, yeah, I eat, you know, these protein bars with collagen or you know, I drink coffee on occasion. So really trying to figure out the people who can tie it in more seamlessly so it makes sense to their audience. And then I think kind of looking at how many brands they're working with. So they're the, like I almost think serial influencers where they're just taking every single brand steal that's coming their way and just trying to make as much money off of it as possible. Which yeah, kudos to them, but the audience gets very worn out very quickly and it's just add after add. So in my mind they're not very trustworthy cuz we as a consumer, I don't trust somebody who is staying, they're in love with a brand, a different brand every single day.
Danielle (Scrunch) (06:49):
<Laugh>. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Awesome. So I mean, it obviously sounds like that's a time consuming process as well, but well worth the investment and really understanding, which is really interesting. I mean I don't know how many years ago, but they, there never used to be an influencer role, right? It fit into PR or social media and now, you know, you search on LinkedIn for influencer marketing roles and there's thousands of them and brands now. Like that's how important it is. But also I think a reflection on, you know, how much effort you really do have to go to to understand your brand, understand what strategies work to drive, you know, whether it's a brand awareness, conversions, depending on what your marketing strategy is. So yeah, that's super cool.
Allison Brown (07:31):
It's crazy how it's changed. It's almost like the, the social media manager role that no one thought every company would need and then they did. And now influencer marketing is kind of doing the same thing. Cuz even when I had the job back at Kodiak Cakes and kind of made it up and was figuring it out as I went, I almost felt like I was pigeonholed and I was worried about my career. Like, have I put myself in a corner? Am I ever gonna have a job anywhere else? Like, is anyone ever gonna wanna influencer marketing? And now seven years later, like you said, there's thousands of jobs out there, everyone wants influencer marketing, so it's great
Danielle (Scrunch) (08:04):
<Laugh> Yeah, and and amazing that you've specialized, right? So like now is the time for influencer marketing and I think a lot of companies are looking for people that have experience in influencer marketing, which is, which is kind of tough because it hasn't been a, you know, a role before. So it really does rely on people that might have gotten that experience in a social or PR kind of position, so mm-hmm. <Affirmative> it's early days still, which I always find super exciting <laugh> and
Allison Brown (08:30):
So it's been really exciting <laugh>.
Danielle (Scrunch) (08:31):
Yeah. Awesome. And so, I mean, we could sit here and talk about how amazing influencer marketing is all day <laugh>, but what do you think some of the key challenges are in the industry? Whether it's something that you've experienced in your roles or whether you know, something that you've experienced and seen or observed in the industry in general?
Allison Brown (08:52):
I think okay, there, there are quite a few, but I, I can narrow it down and I, I thought about this one quite a bit because mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, it's a growing, changing field constantly. So like we'll narrow it down to like three key issues that I saw. And I think one of the biggest things is there's no regulation for payments. Yeah. And what influencers should be paid or what they should expect to be paid. Hmm. And it's becoming I think more and more of an issue just as more micro influencers expect to be paid. Which, you know, creating content does take time and effort, but I think no one has a basis for it and it's becoming more and more of a problem. I think the smart influencers out there are, you know, getting back to brands and saying, I want $500 for this post because I get this number of impressions and I get this number of engagement rate mm-hmm <affirmative> and that is worth this much per impression or per engagement.
(09:44):
And so the influencers that have that mindset behind their post, not just, oh well my friend got paid a thousand dollars so I get paid a thousand dollars. Yeah. <laugh> is much better approach to it. Yes. Especially when you're work talking to a ton of brands who are seeing proposals and talking to influencers all day. Yeah. and I think that that comes with experience. I have a coordinator and I think in trying to, you know, teach her about receiving proposals, I, you know, can't write down a list of like, this number of followers equals this price point that you should accept. You kind of just have to be in the business and looking at it day in and day out. And then you eventually start to learn the price points that make sense and then the ones that are completely outlandish and then occasionally the ones where you get a really good deal <laugh>.
(10:27):
Yes, yes. It's all over the place. Yeah. But that's one of the first I think, big issues. And then, you know, kind of tied in with that. You're working with a lot of people that are probably are a little inexperienced or they're doing it on the side, so this isn't their main job. So I think that there's always, you know, communication just people not understanding the deliverables, people not even understanding FTC guidelines. Like you have to put hashtag AD or sponsored, you have to indicate that <laugh> or everyone gets in trouble. And I think it's just, you know, a lot of the age group that you're working with and because it is such a new industry, people don't understand that you know, this is serious. Mm-Hmm. And it's, you know, marketing and we have to do it. So I think that's definitely part of it as well.
(11:11):
And I think finally in the word influencer is starting to get kind of a bad rep. I kind of noticed the reputation of it changing over the years where everyone's like, oh, it's just another influencer post, it's just another ad or whatever. So I think finding the right creators and I kind of have shifted even my mindset to call that everyone content creators, because kind of sounds better to them. It kind of sounds better in the industry and it also kind of helps the fact that they're creating content, they're not just creating ads mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and then hopefully it would look more natural in their feed or the way that they're showing the product to their audience that, you know, they're creating content with it because they like it, not they just got paid a bunch of money to create this ad <laugh>. Yes. I think that it's becoming very obvious
Danielle (Scrunch) (12:00):
<Laugh>. Yeah. And it's really nice too because I think one of the benefits of influencer marketing is the content. You know, like I think when some brands think about, okay, how much budget am I gonna set aside for influencer marketing? Sometimes they do just compare it to an advertising channel and absolutely it does need to stack up. But there's so much more that influencer marketing delivers. You know, we see some brands who even just use influencers as their content strategy. So they don't even care about the advertising side. They just go, you know what we, we aren't that great at creating content, so let's enlist a bunch of amazing content creators to do it. And then the reach and the advertising side is actually the bonus for them. So I think sometimes, you know, we kind of need to think about all parts of the equation that influences or creators are bringing to the table. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> if we're really thinking about it holistically in the marketing strategy.
Allison Brown (12:53):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> completely agree with that.
Danielle (Scrunch) (12:56):
Yeah. And so it's interesting like, so you mentioned educating, having to educate the influences is a key part of the role. Figuring out budgets is a key part of the role. And then, you know, thinking about them as content creators, as kind of some of the challenges that are coming up. What about, what do you think forward looking in terms of trends? Do you think that we're going to have solved any of those problems in the near future? Or do you think that people are looking at, you know, who cares, we're not gonna be able to change the industry, let's just like go with it and, and you know, do other other things. Where do you, what do you think the future holds?
Allison Brown (13:28):
I think we're going to keep running into these issues because honestly where the industry's going seems to be going more in the way of the micro influencer or even the nano influencer, the, you know, really everyday person and really trying to utilize the word of mouth marketing approach, which I think is fantastic. It's like how can we capitalize on word of mouth marketing on social media? And it's typically with nano or micro influencers. Hmm. But those problems still arise because now you're working with even smaller people who truly probably don't even consider themselves an influencer. You know, they could have 2,005,000 followers and you know, maybe they got them in college. Maybe it's just a lot of friends and family or their community, which is great for the marketer and the brand. It's approaching them. But I think that we're gonna keep running into those problems as we continue to niche down and like convince the everyday person that you are an influencer so you can get paid or get free things in order to post. Which, you know, it's an amazing thing that marketing is kind of changing digitally so much. But I do think we're gonna keep running into these issues, unfortunately. <Laugh>.
Danielle (Scrunch) (14:37):
Yeah, it's well, I mean it's interesting, right? It's not like you go to uni or university or college to become an influencer. It's kind of a, a profession that exists that everyone's just kind of learning as they go, you know, know. And there are you know, platforms, there's lots of blog articles out there on how to be an influencer, but there isnt like a global standard that exists in terms of, you know, I have, I've done that course so I know, I know how to invoice people, I know how to read a contract, I know what, you know, deliverables are in a brief, all of that kind of stuff. So I think we maybe, maybe we just invented something new here, <laugh> maybe that needs to exist.
Allison Brown (15:18):
Think we did
Danielle (Scrunch) (15:19):
<Laugh>
Allison Brown (15:20):
Thinking we should go make a a course on it. Like here's a course how to be an influencer. It's that, or everyone is gonna get an agent or a manager and we're gonna be dealing with so many agents and managers. Yes. I mean I already deal with them so much on the, even on the super micro side, it'll be crazy to me every once in a while someone'll reach out and say, oh no, you can talk about content to my manager. I'm like, oh, you have 5,000 followers and you have a manager. Okay. Surprised. But I guess this is the way the world <laugh>.
Danielle (Scrunch) (15:47):
Totally. But it's so interesting. So I'd love to get your opinion on manager versus no manager. You know, how <laugh> do you run into any issues you know, between the two?
Allison Brown (16:00):
Personally, I hate when influencers have a manager and I understand why they need them and yes, they're great for reading contracts, but I do think managers tend to misrepresent the influencer. Like they'll, if an influencer is really excited about a brand and they'll tell me that, then they'll introduce me to the manager and the manager might be there to play hardball a little bit. But I'm like, you are literally about to lose out on this brand deal because your manager is kind of either not paying enough attention to what they're emailing me about because they don't Yeah. They'll be, you know, they'll ask a bunch of times, well what, what are the deliverables? What was the price? And I, I'm like, this is literally your job to be understanding this <laugh>, you know, bringing it back.
Danielle (Scrunch) (16:43):
Yeah.
Allison Brown (16:43):
Or you know, they'll be confused about content if we ask, you know, if we're gonna do this long-term contract, what are your ideas for content? And as the content creator, you'd think it would be their job to bring it back and the manager will be like, well no, no, no, let's get on a call and brainstorm. And I'm like, no, that's not, we're paying you to do that <laugh>. So I honestly think a lot of the times, and maybe this is a learning curve for the managers cuz the managers, the influencers are new to this role in these jobs and the managers are new too. But I do think that there's some learning that has to happen because you know, the manager can make or break it for these influencers. And I do take a lot of thought into working with an influencer again based on that relationship.
(17:24):
And I think I can't form a relationship unless I'm talking to that person. If I'm always talking to the manager. And occasionally you get a really great manager that you enjoy working with. But I would say like nine times out of 10 they were probably very difficult to work with and we're redlining things in the contract that no one else has ever redlined <laugh> just because they're, you know, have to because of their agency, not necessarily because of that influencer. So overall I would say my experience isn't great and I don't love working with them, but I do understand why some people need managers
Danielle (Scrunch) (18:00):
<Laugh>. Yeah. And it's really interesting too. I think the biggest issue I have comes back to pricing. So one thing we noticed running campaigns is yes, every influencer charges something completely different and you've kind of gotta create your own benchmarks. But you know, where a manager got involved we then seeing markup on markup on markup. So influencers who might have been in budget for a brand who now have a manager who's charging, you know, sometimes only 15%, but we've seen up to 30% and then if you're using an agency, they're taking a clips. So this kind of influencer starts to miss out on deals because by the time it gets back to the brand it's double the price. So yeah, I think there's unfortunately, yeah, there's pros and cons, you know, in terms of I agree with you, you know, sometimes super helpful. And if the influencer yeah, is doing it as like a side hustle and they have a full-time job, then the, and the manager kind of gets back to you a little bit more quickly. So that can help. But yeah, there's sort of pros and cons I think to, to the whole thing.
Allison Brown (19:06):
Yeah, I think you're right, especially with the pricing and I think a lot of maybe influencers don't realize that these days there are so many resources for brands to find almost lookalike profiles. So if it's between two people who have the same audience, about the same follower size, creating the same content, like there is no difference and this person has an agent and they're gonna charge a 20% agency fee and this influencer isn't, I'm always gonna go with the other influencer. Yeah. And I think that, you know, maybe people aren't realizing like they're losing out on pretty good deals just because of these, you know, like you said, 10 to 30 plus percent agency fees, it gets kind of insane.
Danielle (Scrunch) (19:45):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, amazing. So then tell me, we've made the industry out to be super amazing you know, can, you know, yield so many awesome results but has a whole raft of challenges. If you could give some advice to brands who are just starting out in this space. So they're, you know, maybe they're a you know, a lifestyle brand and they know that influencer marketing would actually work well for them, but they're kind of feeling a little bit apprehensive in terms of where to start. Do you know, do you have any tips or advice on, on how to get going, creating an influencer program?
Allison Brown (20:24):
A lot. So that's like <laugh>, I joke it's like my bread and butter like that is 100% what I do. And all of my freelance marketing work is working with smaller brands and getting them started with influencer marketing. And I think in working with all those brands, it pretty much stays the same. I think be very scrappy and be creative and I think just be very willing to pivot and pivot quickly because in order to understand what's gonna work for you, your brand, you can't copy the influencer marketing program of another brand. And I think also just taking a really good hard look at who is buying your products and who is influencing them. And then you reach out to those people and if those people don't quite work, okay, let's shift it a little bit here, spend some money somewhere else. Maybe we need commission and affiliate codes.
(21:14):
Maybe we need to offer a better discount. So I think that there's so many different things that you can layer into a program. So start small and see if that works for you because if it does, great, but if not, you always have things in your back pocket, like offering better discounts, offering affiliate discount codes, whatever it might be. Maybe even paying influencers if you're starting with product gifting, put a small budget behind it. So I think start small and be willing to change things pretty often and understand that it might not spark and work immediately. Cuz I think that's one of the biggest pitfalls I see especially with smaller brands starting out, is they just think influencer marketing is gonna come in and it's gonna save their business. They save
Danielle (Scrunch) (21:53):
My life <laugh>,
Allison Brown (21:54):
It's gonna generate millions of dollars, they're gonna sell out right away. You know, and it's like, no, that's not how it works. I wish that make my job easier. <Laugh>.
Danielle (Scrunch) (22:04):
Well, I mean, it's so funny, like, I don't know any other marketing channel where people have that idea. Like, you don't put a thousand dollars into Google ads or Instagram ads or Facebook ads and go, that's gonna be the thing that changes my life. But when it comes to influencer marketing, everyone thinks it will. Like that one influencer is just gonna post and then everything will be different. It's really bizarre how people got that sort of marketing mentality. It's really, really odd <laugh>.
Allison Brown (22:31):
It's insane. And I think my other favorite thing is, especially now with TikTok being in the influencer world, that they think that we just need to find the influencer that's gonna create a viral video. I'm like, okay, go tell the social media team to go make a viral video. See how that goes. Like <laugh>, it's the same concept. Yes.
Danielle (Scrunch) (22:51):
Oh, so good. Well you have been absolutely amazing. Thank you for, for spending some time with us today. You know, the people that listen to the Scrunch Influencer Marketing podcast are, you know, brands, agencies, influencers, and I know that all of those nuggets of wisdom are going to have helped people in their influence and marketing journey. So I really appreciate your time.
Allison Brown (23:15):
Well thank you so much. I hope I can help some people out with this <laugh>.
Danielle (Scrunch) (23:18):
Absolutely.
