Bernadette Schwerdt
Bernadette Schwerdt is the founder of Australian Copywriting School.
“My career spans 30 years in media, marketing, the arts and technology.
Multiple roles in marketing include senior advertising agency account director for global brands including Apple, American Express and BHP, to digital marketing strategist, pitch coach and copywriter for McDonalds, Mirvac and Merrill Lynch.
In 2004, I founded the Australian School of Copywriting, Australia’s longest running copywriting school. Alumni include the former creative director of Clemenger Advertising, M&C Saatchi and copywriters working for the world’s leading advertising agencies.
A development deal with Fairfax Media to produce an online TV series documenting the success of Australia’s top online entrepreneurs led to the writing of three bestselling business books, (Secrets of Online Entrepreneurs, How to Build an Online Business and ghost writer for Catch of the Decade).
In 2020, I was named in the Top 50 Small Business Leaders by Inside Small Business magazine.
I am what’s commonly known as an AFL ‘tragic’ and as such, was delighted to be invited to be the inaugural mindfulness coach for the Carlton AFL Football Club. I worked closely with the AFL club psychologists and players to develop and deliver their foundation mindfulness program that is still operating today.
I am a sought-after conference MC, facilitator and speaker on the topics of creative courage, marketing, online business, personal branding, content marketing, and storytelling for business.”
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Transcript
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:11):
Fabulous. Bernadette, thank you so much for being here on the Scrunch Creator Economy Show. We are so happy to have you.
Bernadette Schwerdt (00:18):
I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:21):
Now, we met a few years ago now, and I was instantly in love with what you do because it's all about words and, you know, so Scrunch obviously has been the influencer platform and influencer agency, and so we're in the marketing space and I just see the power of words and copy for both my business and every human that I touch. And I know we're gonna have an amazing conversation about that today. But I guess I wanted to start and start with you. So how did you come up with Copy School? What's your background? How did we get here? Yeah,
Bernadette Schwerdt (00:59):
It's, it's a bit of the accidental entrepreneur story. I was in advertising. I was, you know, working in as an account director in Sydney, and I had this burning passion to be an actor and always had. So after I kind of got the business stuff outta my system and I kind of knew what that world was like. I applied for drama schools around the country. I was about 28 and I got into the Victorian College of the Arts. So I upped sticks and packed up my bags and moved to Victoria to study drama for three years. And then after that I started working in TV and film and stage. And I kind of had to sort of have a sight hustle. And even though I'd been an account director, I hadn't really done copy I'd, I'd done some, but I didn't identify as a copywriter.
(01:44):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I just started doing it and I started lecturing at uni as I had been doing, you know, in Sydney, but a few opportunities came along to write copy. And I thought, oh yeah, I can do that. I've seen all the copywriters do that so I can do it. And then I had an opportunity to write a copywriting course, right, for a real estate company. So I created the whole outline and they didn't go ahead. And so, oh, okay. So I put that in the bottom drawer, and then a bit later I had an opportunity to submit it as a short course at Melbourne Uni. And I thought, let's just see if it runs, you know, if it doesn't, it doesn't. So I put it on, and I'm not kidding, it's sold out within a week. And it was one of the first copywriting courses in Australia to offer it to the public.
(02:23):
Cuz prior to that it was always an in-house, like if you wanted to be trained as a copywriter, and this is pre-internet, so I'm, I'm going back a while, <laugh>, you know, I'm showing my age here, but, you know, you couldn't do it. You, you had to sort of self-educate yourself. And again, there was no internet. So I was one of the first to do that. And this course just went really well. I'm, then I ran it again and I was like, well, this is a thing, you know, people actually want to learn how to become copywriters, freelance copywriters, not just for agencies, but for themselves. And that's how copy school began. And then I had my son and I realized, oh, I, and I started training, you know, face-to-face workshops and I thought, I can't do this any longer. And I thought, why don't I just put it online? And again, this was really new. It was probably 2004. Wow. And so I built a website, probably 10 grand, you know what would cost $400 now? Yes.
Danielle (Scrunch) (03:10):
Oh no, I hate that
Bernadette Schwerdt (03:12):
<Laugh>. Yeah, yeah, I know. And I didn't know anything about web, and I had this great web developer who was terrific, but he gave me a really interesting dilemma. He said, I can either teach you to maintain your own website or we'll do it for you. And every fiber in my being was saying, do it for me. But I thought, you know what? I need to learn it. So I said yes. And so I learned it. And and that was a really good decision because even though I'm not a web developer and I'm not a techy person at all, just that little bit of exposure to how I had add a product, how I changed the copy was really helpful because I could do it myself. So that's how the online business began. And I remember waking up one morning and there was like, I don't know, a couple thousand dollars in my account overnight from people I'd never met. Wow, this is exciting. Like,
Danielle (Scrunch) (03:57):
And that,
Bernadette Schwerdt (03:58):
Yeah, leave the bed, right? I love my bed. I don't wanna leave it if I can help her. <Laugh>. And so that was the beginning of my online journey. And then I started looking at how other people have built their online businesses, and I thought, why don't I interview them and just, you know, hone their secrets. And I did that and I rang up some random people who I admired, and they very kindly said, yeah, I'll be happy to be interviewed. So I dragged along a camera crew, and again, not knowing what I was gonna do with the content, which again, is I think a real lesson in Just Bumble Along, which is one of my tenants in co in, in Life anyway, and these series of interviews became a TV show for Fairfax Media. Oh. And so that became Secrets of Online Entrepreneurs, and that led to a book. And that book led to the second book, which is how I met you, how to build an online business at Triple N Podcast. So that's kind of my journey in a nutshell.
Danielle (Scrunch) (04:52):
And that's so cool, because I love how it's not, you didn't set out with this plan. And I think that sometimes people get a little bit paralyzed because they go I've gotta see it all. I've gotta see the full picture before I even get started. So I absolutely loved that it was, okay, here was an opportunity, here was the next opportunity, here was the next opportunity. And you kind of just took it all as it came.
Bernadette Schwerdt (05:16):
Yeah. I mean, I've had a portfolio career since the day dot, even when people didn't know what that meant, and it was kind of not cool. It was kinda like, you don't know what you wanna be kind of thing. Yeah. <laugh>. And I think if I was to time, absolutely always cutting the edge, you know, <laugh>, but I think if I was to take a moral from the story and someone told me this about me, they said, look, some of the doors you're knocking on aren't opening for you. Like acting. It was really hard. I got work and I did good things, but I don't think I was ever going to be fantastic. I didn't know that at the time, but I think I do know now. Mm. But other doors really opened easily, like copywriting and corporate training and public speaking and all these things that I never sought out to do.
(05:58):
Yeah. And I railed against that. I thought, I want this door. And I've been, you know, kicking at it and it wouldn't open and it would, but it was like slamming shut and, and, you know, jarring and all that kind of stuff. So that was kind of a lesson about when whatever life presents you with, it may not be your first option, but if it's easy and it doesn't, you know, conflict with anything else you really wanna do, go with it. And it might lead to something else. And that's kind of, I guess how the, the journey unfolded is just following my nose and following the things that I'm interested in. I never followed the money. I love money, don't get me wrong. It's up there with oxygen, but it's not like I would've stayed in advertising. You know, I would've, you know, done things differently if money was my goal, but it was always the creative curiosity, you know, what intrigues me here? Who do I wanna speak to? Who, what kind of work do I like doing? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's how I found myself here today.
Danielle (Scrunch) (06:50):
Well, and I, I love that as well, because we're, you know as you know, scrunch, we're in the influencer marketing industry, have been for years, but there's been this real shift towards the creator economy and real shift towards not just the influencer with the million followers, it's just the, you know, every day Joe Vlogs who wants to create something. And I feel like your story is that creator story is that I've got a skillset, or I've had an opportunity and I can actually create a brand, create a business out of that, and build something around the life that I wanna live.
Bernadette Schwerdt (07:29):
That's it. And I've always wanted flexibility. I think if I was to look at my priorities in life and what drives me, you know, everyone's got certain needs that need to be met. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, mine was freedom. Yeah. And I, I look back and I, everything was about, I need to do my own thing. I need to do it in my timeframe. I need to res, you know, to be accountable to myself. I work really well with partners and collaborators, so it's not about not wanting to, you know, do things together, but it's just, I like doing my own thing. So that's kind of what
Danielle (Scrunch) (07:59):
I agree,
Bernadette Schwerdt (08:00):
<Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. And isn't it great this environment that we're in now with your business as well, you enable people to get the tools and the education and the techniques to actually do what you love and make a buck from it. I mean, what could be better? The, the world we live in now, I think is so exciting. I look at my son who's on the cusp of choosing university subjects and things, and I think you just have a whisper of something. You know, you wanna be an environmental scientist, but you love cooking and you love art. There's probably a course for that now. Yeah. You know, so I love it. In my day, it was like, you're a nurse, teacher, bank officer, retail, you know, it was, or a police person. It was really quite limited. And, and you only had, if you knew someone, you got into some exciting industries. But other than that, you had to really sort of fight your way into it. So I love where we are now and, and your kind of training enables people to get what they need.
Danielle (Scrunch) (08:50):
Yeah. And it, it is super exciting. I think, you know, some terrible, terrible things happened out of the pandemic, obviously, but the way the world shifted so rapidly, I mean, I feel like there's never been a better time to actually start something, you know, we're all, we have this work from home lifestyle. We have, you know, flexible working. You can start something that, you know, it doesn't have to be a billion dollar unicorn company. You can actually, you know, have your job and start something on the side. And we've got everything in the cloud now, so things are a lot easier to actually start a business. I kind of feel like if you have, you know, as you said, that whisper of something that you're interested in, there's never been a better time to explore it and just see what happens.
Bernadette Schwerdt (09:34):
Absolutely. And I think one of the things I've learned too, Danielle, all over the years, and I did a Ted talk on this, which was how to bumble your way to success. I love that. And I, I, I think you, you know, I did grapple with putting myself out there as a professional buer, but I think what I'm trying to say there is, if anyone listening, for example, if they had, if they're a nurse right? Or a social worker or engineer, whatever, and they wanna do something else, just know that that transition from what you know, to what you don't know, there's gonna be a bumble mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and it's gonna bring up a lot of potentially negative thoughts about, I'm not good enough, you know, I shouldn't be doing this. Who do I think I am? This was never going to work. I'm just not that kind of person.
(10:13):
And all that kind of negative self-talk, I really want people to embrace that and just know it is a phase along the way to competence. You know, like I'm actually designing a new course at the moment, and, and I know the topic quite well, and I'm still going, wow, this is messy. This is really chaotic and I'm not enjoying this. But because I have this deeper understanding of the bigger pitch, I think it's just keep going. Yes. One little video at a time, one little module at a time, and then of course it gets done. You know, it's a bit like a book. So I just wanna encourage people to have a crack and, you know, just know that creativity is messy and chaotic, and it will bring up a few things about yourself that you need to confront. But if you really want to have that creative life and do the things you want to do, you gotta move through that phase and be okay with it.
Danielle (Scrunch) (11:05):
Oh, I could not agree with you more. I mean, I think about a reflect on scrunch as a business. And, you know, 10 years ago we were not an influencer marketing company. You know, we tried four or five different things before we actually landed on influencers. And, you know, it would've been very easy to reflect and say, oh, well, we failed at that, or We failed at this, or we failed that. But instead we, we took all of the good bits, we took all of the stuff that worked and just abl applied that to the next idea. And the same thing in my other business Spark where we coach female founders on sales. I've run that course live four times over the last two years. And every time it changes because I listen to what people have to say, and I make it better. And I don't berate myself for not getting it perfect outta the gate. I go, you know, every time that you are connecting with somebody and, and serving them, you are, you know, helping them hit their goals. So that's only a positive thing. And if you do have that attitude of continuous improvement, then I think that that's that's where the magic lies.
Bernadette Schwerdt (12:12):
Gorgeous. Absolutely. And I think I, I was watching this great daco on Netflix that Metallica, you know, the rock band, and I'm not a death metal <laugh> fan by the Byy Strip. Right. But I'm very interested in creativity and, and I was watching these three guys build Metallica and writing songs in the studio, and these guys are like, you know, sold 90 million albums, but they were doing their new album. And I saw the struggle of these three guys who have had huge followings, but every time you sit down to a new creative project, it's a blank slate. And no matter your past, in fact, the higher you are, the harder it is because you've got expectations and you've got these fans waiting on your next album. So I thought it was just a really interesting, and they were literally just sort of riffing on guitars and coming up with some lyrics and they were having a gough at each other.
(12:59):
And, and it was pretty awful. Some of the stuff were coming up with, and I'm not even, like I said the fan of this stuff, but even I'm going, nah, that gonna work. <Laugh>, sorry, Metallica, I got a couple tips for you. <Laugh>, you know, twinkle Twinkle. But I just remember thinking creativity is so messy even when you're at the highest levels of your art form. And I loved the fact that they kept pushing through, and of course they succeeded, you know, and just another story on the Metallica thing, there was a guy who was in the band from Megadeath, right? He actually got kicked out of Metallica and just, you know, absolutely distraught at being kicked outta the world's biggest rock band or, you know, death metal core stuff. Anyway, he started up Mega Death. Again, I don't even know that much about them, but they're big, not as big as Metallica to this day.
(13:45):
And he was interviewed on the show. He said, I can't live my life. I am so jealous of Metallica's success. Wow. But you've had, you sold 20 million albums, you've got more money than you'll ever need. He goes, I know, but I can't get over the jealousy of what they achieved and what I'm still grappling with or being kicked out of the band. Wow. And I thought, isn't that interesting? You know, that the comparison that he has whatever young rockstar would want, but it's not enough. He wants what he, he could have had. I don't have a lesson there, Daniel. I just thought it was interesting.
Danielle (Scrunch) (14:16):
Well, no, I mean, I think it's super interesting as well because I feel like, you know, the, the plight of the business owner is that nothing is ever done. Nothing's ever done. Nothing's ever good enough. Yes. You hit one goal and you're just looking towards the next one. Yes. That, that's ability to self reflect and celebrate your success Yes. Is super important no matter what you're on.
Bernadette Schwerdt (14:40):
So true. That's another thing I say to my students is don't compare. And when you have a win, that's your version of a win. It could be as simple as sending an email that, that you've really struggled to send, or a phone call that you didn't wanna make, or you felt, you know, this constriction in your tummy about talking to someone. But that little win, that micro win, I think should be celebrated because if you do enough of those, you get to the major win. Yeah. You know, and even those major wins are not that exciting sometimes, you know, it's the smaller wins. So I think, yeah, just be honest with yourself and think, well, where's what's my journey? And as, as difficult as it is to not look at what others are doing, and that's where social media obviously is, is quite interesting.
(15:25):
Yes. You know, but you've gotta just be really focused and disciplined to say, I'm not buying into that. Am I happy? Am I doing my best? Am I living, you know, my talents and my skills? And I think just really live in that space and try not to and also know what makes you happy. You know, like I think you can aim for things, you know, like big clifftop mansions and beach, beach houses and all that kind of stuff. And I've had the very good fortune to speak to a lot of people in those worlds and who are literally billionaires. And what I've discovered, it's not so much the the achievement of the billion dollar exit. It's the building of it. You know, and they'll say, I've, and one guy in particular, I've just finished his, the ghost writing of his book. He said, I've never been sad since I've finished my business. Cuz he's got no team, he's got no goals, he's got no objectives, he's got no reason to get up in the morning. All he does is walk the beach and have coffee with the whoever he can find <laugh>. You know? Oh God.
Danielle (Scrunch) (16:25):
Isn't incredible.
Bernadette Schwerdt (16:26):
It's fascinating. You know, I'm not saying he's sad, he's just, he's been really honest to say, I've never been so bored in my life. He said mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And I realized what drove me the juice was building a team, having a goal, building a website, getting a sale, getting the next one, you know, and then selling the company. So I, I, I listen to those things and I think you, you got to run your own race and work out what drives you. And often it's not the money, it's the enjoyment of something. That's where I think if you go for the billion dollar exit, you can miss out on a lot of joy of life. Mm. You know, go for it if that's what floats your boat. But it doesn't float mine. You know, and I've recognized that I really enjoy the process of things like writing books, for example. There's not a massive business model, not a great business model, but I love it. And I get so much of what I need from those, those projects.
Danielle (Scrunch) (17:17):
Ah, I, I absolutely love that because, you know, I think it's very easy as business owners to also complain about your circumstances and the challenges that you are facing and think that when you hit a particular goal, everything will be okay. And the only thing I've learned is the bigger your business gets, the bigger the problems you have, but also that you are, you are spot on. You hit those goals and then you are, you do get a little deflated. But it is actually that, that almost that adrenaline of solving the problem and you know, and getting there, that can be just so fulfilling.
Bernadette Schwerdt (17:54):
Yeah, exactly. The dopamine hits a real thing with entrepreneurs. It's that sense of you've got a challenge, you know, you like living on the edge, you like the hit of the adrenaline that's coming through, and then you get it and then you've gotta look for the next one. Mm-Hmm. And, and that can come with the bright shining object syndrome, where you are always looking for the next thing without actually finishing the one that you are on or looking to build the next product without actually having fully marketed the one that you've actually got. And I'm talking from experience, you know, I, me too. Right? I know this cuz I'm doing it. But that is the nature of the entrepreneur. And I think if you know that and you recognize that, you think, okay, I need to fully max out what I'm doing right now, and that goes against the grain of an entrepreneur. Yeah. Because it requires different skills. And so for acknowledging that and go, well find someone who can do that for you mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, work with someone who can sort of contribute to that skillset that you don't have or naturally gravitate to. So I think this is the, the job of an entrepreneur is to know yourself and to know which parts of yourself, you know, aren't serving you and the business.
Danielle (Scrunch) (18:54):
Mm-Hmm. I think that self-awareness has gotta be one of the most amazing, valuable things that you can have in both life and in business. But I think it's difficult. I think it's very difficult to do that.
Bernadette Schwerdt (19:09):
Yeah. Well, the emotional awareness is a lifelong journey. I think also part of this discussion too, Danielle, I think is the belief that what you do, nothing's wasted. Mm. You know, I'm a big believer that all the experience I had is at drama school as traumatic as they were. And the presentations that I've done that didn't go well or, you know, just things where you just think, oh, all the time you spent on something, you know, oh, you think, what is the point? Why am I spending so much time on this? Yeah. But when I look back, I think some of the biggest gifts I got were through those, those challenging experiences, but also just knowing that, oh, even example, I studied business, right. Marketing and I did statistics. Right. Never interested in statistics at all. And then I start being a corporate trainer and I'm learning Myers Briggs type indicator. And in that there's this whole statistical bit. And so I'm going, wow, what do you know? Here I am like 15 years later I'm studying statistics and loving it. And I knew a bit about it because I studied it at uni. So that little bridge, you know, from the past to the future. So I just take whatever comes my way and think nothing's wasted. Nothing's a waste of time.
Danielle (Scrunch) (20:15):
Yeah. Oh my God. I I literally could not agree with you more. I, I think back, I had a corporate career once in, in sales and now I teach sales to female entrepreneurs. I'm like, you know, and I, you look, it was very easy to look back at that time, go, oh my God, I was so soul destroying, being in the corporate world and I just wanted to go into my own business and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, actually I learned so many foundational skills there that I've now taken and applied to my own business. So nothing is ever wasted if you are willing to, to embrace it.
Bernadette Schwerdt (20:46):
Yeah. And just not knowing when you might come in handy. Yeah. You know, but just accepting. Well this is, you know, this is taking me a lot of time. I'm not enjoying it very much, but hopefully one day you're coming to you
Danielle (Scrunch) (20:56):
We'll circle back around. Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk copy then, because obviously you are the expert and I wanna extract the knowledge out of your brain. So I would love to relate this to the people who are listening in who are going to be to brands. So typically like your marketing managers who've gotta think about copy for websites, social media posts, blog articles, packaging, the whole gambit, and then down to the other side of our audience who are creators, who predominantly post on social media, they've got their captions. And then some of them do have sort of websites that they update as well. Are there, what's your perspective on words and how important they are to, because both of those sides of, of our listeners are interacting with an audience and, and engaging with customers. What is your, what are your thoughts on how important copy is for that experience?
Bernadette Schwerdt (21:53):
Well, I think copy goes hand in hand with visual, particularly with your target audience. But it can't be underestimated. I mean, if you think about certain politicians, yes, we can, you know, make America great again, <laugh>, please explain, you know, us not what you, your country can do for you, what you can do for your country. I mean, you only have to look at the power of words to actually change countries, right? Mm-Hmm. And political situations. Mm-Hmm. So that's, that's kind of separate to marketing, but I just really want to emphasize that words do matter. And so I think brevity is key and it's really difficult. And that's the job of a copywriter is to take a very complex topic potentially and distill it down to its essence. And I often liken it to Jerry Seinfeld, you know, the comedian who's one of my favorites.
(22:39):
And the reason I love Jerry, because he does take, you know, he's hyper aware of life and hyper aware of situations and he zones in on something that's quite complicated. But no one's able to put their, you know, put it to, to words and he takes it and turns it into a joke. So it's like a crystallized moment and that's what copy is. And to get to that simplified crystallized moment takes actually a lot of work. Yes. And I think most people underestimate how long it takes to write one line. And if someone said to me, write a 50,000 word book or a 50 word postcard <laugh>, I'm like, Hmm, I might be taking the 50,000 word book. Cause a 50 word postcard is really, really hard. Yeah. So I think some tips I would give is get your brief clear. And this is, I think what distinguishes a professional from an amateur is do you use a creative briefing document to get to where you wanna go?
(23:31):
And most people who haven't trained, and that's most people cuz they've just been doing other things, they just hit it. You know, they go for it without any real thought as to, well let's just take a step back and do the planning. So when I was an account director, director, it was very clear there's an account service function, which is to take the brief, do the research, look at the strategy, cost it, et cetera. And then you give it to the creative team and they write it and design it very separate departments. Right. And separate brain actions. Yeah. As a freelancer, maybe as an influencer, they go, well I'm just gonna write. Mm. It's like, well, what if you took a step back and looked at the creative brief? And if people want my version of the creative brief, I'm very happy to send it to them.
(24:13):
Mm-Hmm. But it's a series of questions and if you know these questions and you ask 'em of yourself or you ask 'em of your client for the marketing people and the marketing people, I'm certain would have their own briefs here. But for the freelancers, often there, that's a, you know, it's a new concept and it'll be things like, you know, well what are we making? And just getting your task defined. Yeah. Is it a 50 word caption? You know, is it a 32nd TikTok? Is it a five minute sales letter for the video? You know, what are we making, what are we selling as well? And often we're not selling something directly. There might be the micro conversions involved in each sort of communication piece. But just knowing what I'd call the major goal. Like what are we actually selling and what are the minor goals? What needs to happen, what, you know, what sort of things do we want people to do to move across the, the customer map into the sales, you know, purchase page. So I think yeah, getting really clear about what you're selling and what tasks needs to be made is a starting point.
Danielle (Scrunch) (25:12):
Yeah. I, I love that so much. I mean, you know, to, to disclose, you know, obviously work, we work with a lot of influencers and creators and I'm always shocked when they come back or some of them come back and say, well, can you write the caption for me? You know, and I think, well, you know, well we're engaging you because we want your experience and your lens and what connects best with your audience. But I think that some of them are hesitant to, to write the words because it's not their strong suit. You know, they're more comfortable taking a picture or appearing in a video. But I love that thought of actually don't get so maybe caught up in what the 50 word caption is. Take the opportunity to step back and really understand what it is that you're trying to achieve first and breaking that down. Because I think then that helps actually lead into the words that you all write
Bernadette Schwerdt (26:08):
100%. In fact, if you do the briefing correctly, it will almost write itself. Mm-Hmm. Like for example, if you work at your target audience, and again, this is where people are a bit broad, you know, they go, oh, she's 25 to 34, she lives InTown New South Wales, you know, she owns two dogs and she works for a not-for-profit. It's like, we need to go further than that. You know, and there's a whole series of questions and it doesn't take long once you get the hang of it. You can do this in literally five minutes, but you get to the problem of what do we solve for this woman? Yeah. What is the problem? And once you identify that problem, that one liner, then you go, okay, you put your headline formulas in front of it, you know how to increase your profile on LinkedIn.
(26:47):
Let's just say that was the problem she had. Right. Just put how to, in front of it, you've got yourself your lead magnet, you've got your headline or whatever it is. And then you say, okay, well what are the questions this person has about that topic? So I always start with the FAQs, you know, if I know who the audience is, I know what we're selling and I'm walking 'em on in her shoes, I'm thinking, well, if she was gonna buy this, what questions would she have? Yeah. And then you list them down top 20 questions that becomes the basis of your copy. Either you know, your blog post or a video or whatever it might be. But those questions were a really lovely way to begin your copy journey. And then you say, well, wouldn't it be great if, and you ask that question as if you were the person, so wouldn't it be great if someone could actually write my LinkedIn profile? And that tells you, you know, what your next piece of copy needs to be or what your next product needs to be. Yeah. So wouldn't it be great if it's a lovely phrase, a a trigger phrase for helping you develop some innovative new products or ideas about how you can serve your, your target audience.
Danielle (Scrunch) (27:44):
And I love just that flip of thinking about it from a target audience point of view. You know, I know that you know, sometimes I see briefs that are very much this is the brand, this is the product, this is the post. Not so much about, you know, this is who we're trying to sell to. So this is the transformation that we want that person to experience. This is, you know, the problem they have and the solution and you know, why it's so important that we bring that into their world. So I think sometimes you know, as a creator or an influencer, they kind of just write from their lens rather than writing from the customer's lens. Which is I think a really interesting distinction.
Bernadette Schwerdt (28:25):
Totally. And it's, you know, any marketing manager listening would, would know that inherently. Mm-Hmm. But for those who haven't had the marketing background or, you know, steeped in copywriting, it is a bit of a revelation. Mm-Hmm. It's like, oh wow, really? I shouldn't do it through my lens. It's through their lens. And I think it's the ultimate form of service really, cuz you think it's not what I want. It's what do they want, you know, what's important to them. And that's where the acting actually, and copywriting merge. Cuz as an actor or writer for that matter, you're, you're sort of channeling that character. You go like, I'm playing this role. Yeah. And obviously the words get given to you as an actor, but as a writer writing a novel, for example, you channel those characters and copywriting is no different. You are becoming like a 69 year old man who's a retiree, who's looking to join a golf club. You know, what would Bob want Right? In a golf club?
Danielle (Scrunch) (29:15):
<Laugh>, what would Bob want? <Laugh>,
Bernadette Schwerdt (29:16):
What would Bob want? What would builder, you know, what does an 18 year old girl want when she picks a formal dress out? You know, what does a 35 year old woman want when she, you know, hires a childcare nanny or something? So you, you channel these characters and think, well if I was them, and that's why I love it, cuz you can actually get to act out with actually leaving your desk. Yeah. So it's, it's kind of, you know, channeling I call it.
Danielle (Scrunch) (29:39):
That's so cool. I love it. I love it. So let's wrap with maybe our last tip. So I'm just sort of reflecting on our conversation of your journey in business. And I really feel like I see a lot of influencers and creators kind of almost want to take that path. So they really want to find out what is the thing for them. And you found copy and you found book writing and you found courses, which are absolutely phenomenal. If you could go back to the beginning of your journey and give yourself a piece of advice what would that be? So how would you, what piece of advice would you give yourself? When starting a creative business?
Bernadette Schwerdt (30:21):
I would say have courage. Have courage to ask. You know, even if you're not sure of what the question is, just ask it and see what comes out. I would have courage to seek out mentors. I didn't even know what a mentor was in my twenties. It just wasn't a thing. But now I have young women contact me a lot and asking for help and I love it. It's so easy to help. It's a phone call, it's a reference, it's a testimonial. It's super simple for me. And for them it's big. And I feel like, no, keep asking. It's fine. You know, it's is really easy for me to do this. So I think that would be, I call it creative courage. You know, that's actually my motto is to have courage, to find your creative potential and to do what you need to do. You know, and you can make a, you can make a living from that.
Danielle (Scrunch) (31:09):
You are absolutely incredible. Thank you Bernadette for coming on the Creator Economy Show. It has been an absolute pleasure to speak with you.
Bernadette Schwerdt (31:18):
Thank you, Danielle. It's great to be here.
