Harry Sekhon
Transcript
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:10):
Amazing. Harry, thank you for being on the Scrunch Creator Economy Show. It's so fabulous to have you.
Harry Sekhon (00:17):
It's my pleasure. Thanks so much, Danielle.
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:19):
Now we usually like to get started with giving people a little bit of context as to how you got to where you are today. Now you are the marketing chief for The Good Seeds, new probiotic drink. Sorted, but I know pre
Harry Sekhon (00:34):
Prebiotic. Prebiotic.
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:36):
Oh, prebiotic, okay, prebiotic,
Harry Sekhon (00:38):
Sorry.
Danielle (Scrunch) (00:38):
Gonna be a chat. We're gonna have to get into all of this, but before we get into that, and the work you're doing today, how, how did you get here? What's your sort of career background?
Harry Sekhon (00:49):
Right. So I, I have had a a rather scatterbrained sort of a career. But, but in hindsight, it all kind of makes sense. So, so I started off in tech with you know, actual systems development and you know, programming. And from there on, I picked up a lot of data oriented skills and data analytics skills. And that came handy when I picked up a role with a wine company. In fact, it's, I think Australia's second largest publicly listed wine company, treasury, wine estate. So there was a lot of analytics work to be done there. But that was part of the supply chain. And while doing that, I also had the good fortune of working cross-functionally. So I was working with the finance teams, with the strategy team and also the marketing team. So that gave me a very good understanding of how a large-scale organization actually operates and what are some of the challenges and what are some of the opportunities there. And then from there on, I had this itch to start my own thing. And you know, meal kits were a hot thing back in 2016. So I decided we were going to do a slightly better meal kit. Cool.
Danielle (Scrunch) (01:55):
That
Harry Sekhon (01:56):
Was and that was called feastly. But after about three years, we, we had to pull the plug on that mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, cause economically it wasn't going anywhere. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But a lot of the you know, b being a startup at the time, I think, I think that's what really put me into a mindset of looking into growth marketing avenues and starting to build programs and marketing and look for, you know, those low cost but high impact channels. Mm-Hmm. and you know, at the time it seemed like, okay, I just need this one social media post to go viral, and then, then we'll be set. But the drain doesn't quite, yeah. I know that's the five dream for everyone, but that doesn't quite, so, so a lot of hard lessons while trying to build the business up as well.
(02:42):
And I think what was good was I saw this opportunity in the market to help other emerging brands and other emerging startups as well. So initially I started off running an agency and I was actually working goodsy was a client for the, the agency. Oh, cool. But then it got to a stage where, you know, they wanted to raise capital, and we became part of that process as well. And one thing led to another and they poached me as their at a marketing. Of course, it's still, you know relatively part-time. It's not a full-time gig at the moment. But at, but at the main, at the moment, I've got one foot in the agency side and the other foot on the brand side. Yeah. Awesome. So it's, it's, it's a really good experience because on the brand side, we can go much deeper in terms of what we want do.
(03:33):
So whether it's utilizing, you know, emerging channels, different channels, but also looking at the analytics side of things, but also integrating things with the backend of the business in terms of what is the supply chain experience actually look like from the consumer's perspective. So, so I'm trying to mix and match some of the new knowledge from the startup era in terms of market building, then matching it up with the supply chain side of things and understanding how those things were. And then finally adding a little bit of the tech skill set with a lot of marketing automation, et cetera. And also some of the analytics tools to create that, you know, well-rounded sort of marketing team inside the organization. So yeah, like I said, in hindsight it makes sense, but at the time, I had no idea I would land up here, so, yeah.
Danielle (Scrunch) (04:17):
That's so cool. And I absolutely love that because I guess coming from the influencer marketing world, I have been banging on the drum about data <laugh> for about 10 years now. Yeah. And, you know, and a lot of people struggle with the data component of marketing, but it is the most important part of marketing, I think, because I don't think influencers or creators are a silver bullet. I don't think any marketing strategy is really a silver bullet to anyone's business. It's really about understanding the data and trying everything and optimizing everything until you do figure out what's, what's right for you and your growth.
Harry Sekhon (04:58):
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
Danielle (Scrunch) (05:00):
Yeah. So how do you then approach, you know, taking all of those elements? How do you approach that at the good seed? And talk to me about this prebiotic biotic drink, <laugh>.
Harry Sekhon (05:10):
Oh, right, okay. So, so sorter is, it's, it's a, well, we call it new kind of soft drink. And, and it quite literally is because sorter was created to challenge the traditional soft drink category by creating something that can be consumed guilt-free. But at the same time, it actually has you know, enhancing properties as far as health benefits concern. So it is a prebiotic soft drinks. So prebiotics are the plant-based fiber they're us, they can, can be soluble orange voluble, and that's what your gut microbiome actually feeds on. Mm-Hmm. so in order to maintain a flourishing and healthy gut microbiome to ensure that you don't have digestive issues, and then it has far reaching impacts on, you know, your, your moods, your stress levels, your skin, et cetera. So, so I
Danielle (Scrunch) (05:59):
Don't think I need this in my life.
Harry Sekhon (06:00):
Yes. <laugh>. Yeah. So when they, when they say, when they call it the second brain, I mean, you could almost the, you can, you can take it on face value that it is quite literally our second brain. And looking at the, you know, current consumer preferences and some of the issues that are emerging out of eating too much processed food, et cetera. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but nine, 10 Australians don't get enough fiber. And you look at a number of digestive issues and some of some serious concerns health concerns people have had. A lot of them are related to the management of a healthy gut microbiome. So that's why we've got the prebiotic element, but then there's, there's more to the soft drink. So, and then the other thing is so it's, it's got about, you know, up to 30% of your daily fiber needs. So that's, you know, you have one can plus a couple of pieces of fruit and wedge and you're set for the day. But then it was a matter of understanding, okay, how do we make it taste good, like a soft drink as well? Because, you know, health, having a health drink is one thing, but you know, if, if it tastes like, you know, vinegar, well that's, that's,
Danielle (Scrunch) (07:05):
No one's gonna drink it. That's
Harry Sekhon (07:07):
Right. <Laugh>. So, so we said like, we, let's, how do we actually make it palatable? Because that's the only way you can actually create and enforce a behavior that's actually good for you as well. So from a sweetness point of view, like we are using a plant-based protein-based sweetener which is called Tortin which is much lighter than some of the sugar alcohols like your xylitol. And erythritol it's also easier on the tummy compared to stevia and aspartame as well. And the last one was, you know, working out, okay, well, well, that's all nice and good, but if something's made in the lab with all chemicals, I mean, you know, that's, that can't be good for your gut microbiome. So that's why all the ingredients and the coloring, they're all a hundred percent natural as well. So, so it's a hundred percent natural. It's, it's, it's got you know a plant protein based sweet now it's got prebiotic fiber. And on top of that, it's, it's low carb and low calories as well. So
Danielle (Scrunch) (08:05):
Oh my gosh, this is like a magical drink. <Laugh>.
Harry Sekhon (08:07):
Yeah. We, we quite literally looked at the market research and said, okay, what are the key criteria, key ing criteria? And we made sure we could tick off as many boxes Yes. As possible. And, and to be honest, like there's nothing quite like it in the market that tick that many boxes mm-hmm. At the moment. So we are, we're, we're at the forefront of a category that is still emerging that, and that will continue to emerge over the next five to 10 years.
Danielle (Scrunch) (08:36):
Amazing. And where is it available?
Harry Sekhon (08:39):
So it's currently available at Kohls mainly around the East Coast, so Victoria, Queensland, new South Wales, Canberra and Tasmania. It's also landed in south Australia as of last month. It's available at A M P M and some of the Foodland stores as well. It's, it's also available at some of the independent stores in Victoria through IGA and mercato and some of the other health stores like Tere Marre and Rose Street rose Street Pantry, and Moses and Co, et cetera. So so there's, there's a few opportunity, and of course you can buy it online as well, if you're based out of you know, wa or places where Kohl doesn't stock it you can always get it online.
Danielle (Scrunch) (09:23):
Amazing. So then your role from a marketing point of view is both e-commerce and driving retail sales?
Harry Sekhon (09:31):
That's correct, yes. Yes, exactly. So initially when we first launched the brand which was back in November last year we were originally focusing on a direct to consumer model mm-hmm. <Affirmative> because there was still a bit of flux in terms of you know, people visiting retail outlets and retail taking on new products within a category. So initially we, we, we worked on the direct to consumer model and for a good, you know, two to three months. We really pushed it hard during that summer as well. And that was quite good because that then gave us the meeting with Kohl's and got us accepted into Kohl as well, because we had proven track record and customer testimonials about how they were accepting or approaching the product as well. Cool. And and sure enough you know, in February we had to change the tactic on Chase the strategy a little bit, because now it was a mixed model because that's when we got listed with the Kohl's and so the independent stores. So very quickly we had to move away from you know, driving online sales to actually creating mass awareness for the brand so that people would actually know about the brand before they even walked in to the retail outlets.
Danielle (Scrunch) (10:52):
Yeah, exactly. And that's the interesting thing I find about the retail model is there's kind of that, you know, you need to prove traction, you need to prove that there's brand awareness. You need. I've, I've worked on a few campaigns that were literally just for the retail packs to try and get into wholesalers just to prove that they kind of had some level of traction. So I always find that interesting. So how have influencers or creators played a role in, well, I guess this current business, but maybe some past ones as well?
Harry Sekhon (11:25):
Yeah, so, so, so one of the most significant changes that came about when we switched our strategy was looking at the overall media landscape and understanding that, okay, influence marketing is one media channel mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that has to be utilized as part of the overall media mix. So instead of focusing on, you know, specific platforms and trying to optimize for a particular platform, we've started to optimize for more of an outcome. So for a marketing, I love that. Cool. and for a product that's sitting on the retail shelf, I think brand awareness and product awareness are quite important. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> so we see things like, you know, display advertising video advertising looking at you know, our onsite sampling, digital sampling, influencer marketing, utilizing creators and utilizing paid social, et cetera. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> all is part of a massive media mix that has to be, you know, tweaked depending on the season as well.
(12:29):
For instance, you know, right now in the middle of winter we're relying more on programmatic display mm-hmm. <Affirmative> advertising, just so the brand is reinforced in people's minds. And that is to ensure that as soon as the weather starts to improve, you know, there's that strong consideration for the brand before someone walks into the store. But then again, during summer months, we try to go for more direct marketing based models where we can actually push more of the product and create a higher demand from the markets as well. And which is why, you know, we used this time especially the winter sort of period to actually launch our creator and influencer campaigns because we wanted to make sure that people are aware mm-hmm. <Affirmative> so that that way when there's enough, you know, promotional activity in store, or whether we trying to actually drive traffic to the stores people at least know about the benefits yes. Of the product and, and are actively trying to add it to their weekly grocery shop as well.
Danielle (Scrunch) (13:34):
Awesome. And so that's, I really like how you use the word optimize for an outcome because I think that they're, one of the reasons I love influencer marketing is because you can kind of use it for so many different strategies. You know, there's people that use it just to get user generated content. There's people for brand awareness, and then people that can track it down to, you know, that final sale. So I like that you said, you know, optimizing it for a particular outcome. How has that changed when you talk to influencers? So do you brief them differently? Do you get them to, to do different things? You know, how's it actually translate from a strategic point of view?
Harry Sekhon (14:14):
So like, I think the brief is underrated yeah. <Laugh> for, for an influencer and creator strategy because the brief is pretty much everything that could mean the difference between meaningful content versus completely meaningless content. Because at the end of the day, you know, we're not trying to create content for the sake of it. We're not trying to fill up a calendar as such. We're, we're, we're outcome driven. So if the outcome is brand awareness we try to ensure that we are going after influencers who firstly have, you know, high degree of brand affinity that they have to be able to resonate with the audience that we're going after. And then secondly, they have to be able to present the brand the way you know, we'd like the brand to be presented.
(15:05):
But then from a brief perspective, you know, we, we give them guidance around what we'd like to see mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and as far as possible, you know, if we firstly give them an opportunity to try the product so that they understand how it fits in the lifestyle. Yes. Cause we're looking for authenticity or messages as well. So it's, it's quite easy to just simply, you know, copy paste for the brand wants you to say mm-hmm. <Affirmative> versus relating the brand to your own lives, NAS and your own personal needs. And then communicating that to the audience. So as far as possible, we respect the creators and influences, you know, creative flair and the creative skillset, but then simply give them guidance around what they can and can't say. I think in the earlier days, one of the things that used to happen a lot was people getting confused between prebiotics and probiotics <laugh> and, and that and that.
(15:58):
And that was something we had to monitor quite closely because that would've, you know, put some trouble legally. So, so that was something we do monitor a lot. But then beyond that, I think what we initially thought about was that we were going to have stages of different objectives mm-hmm. <Affirmative> which had to be lined up properly. Yeah. we're still very much in the brand awareness stage. We, we've tried a few different models there as well. So we didn't just go with the generic sort of model of, you know, simply doing gifting or simply doing a paid post to such. So we initially because we wanted to measure performance, we went straight off for an affiliate based model, but I think that was too early for an affiliate model because the brand hasn't been established quite yet mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.
(16:45):
so we, we didn't have much of an uptake from the influencer community for something like that. So we then eased it up a little bit. We start a bit more of a gifting based approach. But then what we found was with, with gifting, because we weren't actually telling them what we wanted back in return mm-hmm. <Affirmative> I think the content was a bit hit and miss. And because it's a gift, you know, you can only go back with feedback so many times before we get completely shut off by the by the creator. So then we took on a more focused approach. We started utilizing some of the existing platforms. We, we could put a very clear brief mm-hmm. <Affirmative> with so that the creators and influence was so, would actually understand what to communicate Yes.
(17:34):
And how to communicate it. So the initial you know, two campaigns that we did, they were very much based around, how does this product fit in your life? And just talk about that mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. and then on top of that, you can perhaps pick on, you know, a couple of value propositions that we'd like you to touch upon. Mm. and also you know, maybe elicit some of the features of the products so people clearly understand who it's for as well. And I think we'll continue that until at least the end of spring because we wanna make sure that, you know, there's enough volume in terms of the number of eyeballs we're getting on the content as well. But at the same time, we're also monitoring engagement to see, well, are people actually interacting and engaging with the content? And then what, what that then does is it actually helps us understand, okay, where do we have to create reinforcement and repetition mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, which, which creators do we want to actually reinforce the message with and where we might have to find someone else with who's audience the messages and the product might resonate a little bit better.
Danielle (Scrunch) (18:42):
That's so cool. Because I think that there's a lot of people that think if they just find the right influencer, they're gonna post and their whole world will be changed. But I always say to people, you know, it's, it's just like social ads or Google ads, you kind of, it's not set and forget, you know, you're testing different images, different copy, different call to action, you know, looking at different content and different ads sets for different stages of the purchasing funnel. I love that you're saying that about influencer and marketing as well, because it is, you know, there's different strategies, there's different stages of the buying cycle. Some influencers work, some content works, some doesn't. So unless you are evaluating and optimizing, then you won't have a successful influencer strategy.
Harry Sekhon (19:25):
Exactly. And I absolutely agree.
Danielle (Scrunch) (19:27):
Mm. And I love too that you experimented with affiliate and gifting and kind of landed on more of the structured sort of paid first because it's, it is interesting, I think that each of them have their own value, but at the right time. Yes. and especially I, I love the comment about, you know, when you are gifting someone, there's only so many times that you can go back and give the influence of feedback, because a lot of them won't take on any feedback at all if you do just gift. It's sort of a, if we post, we post, if we don't, we don't. So yeah. You know, some, and some are, you know, it kind of just depends on where the influence is at, but having that awareness going into that strategy is really important because, you know, obviously still gifting costs money, right? Like it's still product that you are parting with. So you need to be willing to sacrifice some of that product for influencers that don't end up posting, or the content's a bit black cluster, it is kind of a bit of a risk with that strategy as well.
Harry Sekhon (20:27):
And oftentimes what we've also done is, you know, one of the other things we've added, I into the whole mixes, you know, finding our own creators who can create branded content for us as well. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Danielle (Scrunch) (20:37):
Yes.
Harry Sekhon (20:37):
I love that. Mainly because with branded content, we can be a bit more prescriptive Yeah. In terms of what we'd like to see as a result. Then when we add that to our paid media plan, we can test very quickly as to what sort of a creative actually works. We then use that to refine our brief for the next campaign for influencers so that we can actually give them a bit of guidance around you know, what sort of content actually works as well. But also, you know, there's, there's a fine line between prescribing what we want mm-hmm. Versus letting the influencers creativity take over and them communicating it in their own authentic style to the audience as well.
Danielle (Scrunch) (21:20):
Yeah. Cuz it's interesting, I've seen, and I dunno if you've had gold got any thoughts on this, but I've seen some brands use influencer content and their own content in paid ads and the influencer content perform a lot better in paid media. Have you had any comparisons as to whether that's been the case for you?
Harry Sekhon (21:39):
So for, for most KPIs for instance, if you're looking at cpm, if you're looking at cost by engagement, if you're looking at even you know, we, we've used it for traffic campaigns as well. We've also used them for conversion focused campaigns. And like it depends with the branded content, right? So if the branded content still looks like user-generated content it, the performance seems to be on par. But I think where things become different when we're looking at branded content partnership mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and sponsored posts when the content's actually presented from the influences account, it tends to have, it tends to perform much better because it comes across as a one-to-one engagement between the between the content creator and the viewer mm-hmm. <Affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative> whereas when you have those little tags saying, you know, so and so with so and so brand in a, in a paid partnership I think those get called out and we do get comments especially on social accounts. We do get a fair few of comments. You know, the people, people do see through it that, you know, most likely someone's being paid to say it mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. but I think that's where we've taken a slightly different approach that when we, when we send our product for appraisal, we, we make it very clear to the creator and the influencers that they don't have to take on the project. Mm-Hmm.
Danielle (Scrunch) (23:12):
Yeah.
Harry Sekhon (23:12):
Also, they only take on the project if they really like it, if they can see themselves using the product, if they can see themselves talking about the product to their friends and family. Mm-Hmm. because otherwise it actually looks like someone's being paid to
Danielle (Scrunch) (23:26):
Say it, it comes across inauthentic, doesn't it? It does. It does.
Harry Sekhon (23:29):
It's, yes.
Danielle (Scrunch) (23:31):
Yeah. And I, I think that that's, you know, one of the big trends that I'm seeing now, well probably in the last couple of years, I think it's a post covid trend, really, is people really, really want that authentic integration. Consumers really wanna know intimately what the influencer genuinely uses in their day-to-day life. Do you think that that's the case? Have you seen that or any other trends sort of emerge in the last couple of years of, of
Harry Sekhon (23:57):
These Oh, absolutely. So, so we, we've, we've looked for people with certain specific lifestyles. So, so, so if there are people where, if there are moms with kids who are trying to get their kids to stop drinking, so soft drink, but they still, you know, they feel guilty for holding things back. So they want to give something at least. Then we have diabetics who can't have, you know, consume sugar-based products. We have people with digestive health issues such as ibs we might have, or they might be on a low Ford map diet. We will also look for people who are, let's say, preparing for a specific you know, fitness competition who need to really control the calories, et cetera. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So we, we try to really find people in whose life this can actually fit.
Danielle (Scrunch) (24:45):
Yeah.
Harry Sekhon (24:46):
Because once they actually consume the product, we know that the product will perform well from on, from a taste profile point of view, then it becomes a case of how the product fits in their specific lifestyle. And I think that message is quite important because, you know, you can, you, you can rattle out all the value propositions and the features of the product that the brand wants to say yes. But without that I think that that intersection of how it actually fits or how they are actually consuming the product Mm. Without that sort of message being put forth I think the authenticity is very hard to earn. Otherwise.
Danielle (Scrunch) (25:27):
Yeah. And I like that you are it's storytelling for me, really, it's, you know, what are all of those different scenarios in different people's lives that we add value to, and how can we use somebody who is going through that particular issue to communicate that story and, and talk about their own personal experiences. And I think that's the, the wonderful thing about influencers is that you have the ability to do a brand really doesn't have the ability to do that. You know, we can, we can say, we do this, we do this, we do this. Yeah. But nobody cares. You know, being able to communicate those authentic stories yeah. Through influences is awesome. Yeah. So what do you, sorry, you go
Harry Sekhon (26:09):
And, and, and I think the, the, the, the interesting thing there is I think be beyond the point as a brand, you've gotta back away a little bit in terms of how the message comes across. Because especially for social platforms you know, firstly you have to be respectful of the platform in terms of what sort of content you actually get back as well. Mm-Hmm. for instance, if you, if you went ahead and tried to do like more of an inform and educate type of piece of content, you, if you put it up on something like TikTok, that might not really work very well. Mm-Hmm. whereas if you did something that has entertainment value it, it can work fairly well across different platforms. But then it might be that it might underperform on something like Facebook because, you know, that's just not the nature of the content being consumed there. So I think there is that fine line between making sure that the brand message is communicated, but also not trying to take complete control the actual message while at the same time ensuring that the content you're receiving back is it's native to the platform for which it's being designed.
Danielle (Scrunch) (27:20):
Yeah, absolutely. So, so what do you think's coming next, you know, where we've talked a lot about you know, optimizing, really understanding what the brand stands for, the stories, the consumer, you wanna connect with the right influencers, testing, you know, where do you think this is all going? What do you think's next for the influencer and creator economy?
Harry Sekhon (27:43):
I think one of the things that we're starting to see a lot of is that the content or the creative itself is more influencer driven and cons consumer driven as opposed to being brand driven. So what I mean by that is, you know, previously you'd have these really pretty pictures in massive studios you know, you know, multi-day photo shoots, models coming in, et cetera. But I think the era for those perfectly curated images I think we're starting to move past that a little bit now to the point that things that look a bit more raw, things that look a bit more, or, or, or feel a bit more real mm-hmm. <Affirmative> are, are much more well received by consumers. And especially in a time when, you know, like there there was a time when the brand could get away with saying whatever they like and you know, you'd have to sift through their web to read reviews to actually figure out is that in fact legit?
Danielle (Scrunch) (28:43):
Yeah. I'm the number one brand on the planet
Harry Sekhon (28:46):
<Laugh>. Whereas where, where, where, whereas now that message can be communicated by you know, people whom consumers already trust. Mm-Hmm. and I think what's, what's happening is that we're seeing a shift in how media is consumed. So a lot of that power around influencing masses is to some degree shifting away from the old media publishing houses into the hands of these creators where each creator is in themselves a media platform. Hmm. and, and what that's led to is the kind of creative that actually transcends the social media sort of space and can be utilized across, you know, you could, you could use it for a massive video campaign. You could use it for display out of home campaign. You could use it for your basic display and your native campaigns as well. You, you could even use it for content marketing if you still feel inclined in fact, to the point you could even send, you know, testimonials from influencers even within a B2B sort of context so that people understand, okay, you know, if, if there's a high synergy between the, the, the influence what the, who, the whom the influencer represents and, and, and the business you're trying to transact with you know, you can always convince the other party about the marriage of your brand, your product through that.
(30:13):
So I think, I think what'll happen is the, the, the media that's been created through influencer marketing will start to move out of the social space. And I'll start to move into some of the more traditional spaces as well where, you know, it's a matter of seeing the same familiar face across. And that's already happening to some degree. I think some of the bigger brands are already doing that quite well. And I think that we, we'll start, start seeing a lot more of that. Mm. where, you know, instead of doing the perfectly art directed shots, you'll see more of these raw, real authentic sort of images and videos coming through.
Danielle (Scrunch) (30:51):
Awesome. I love it. I love it. Well, you are incredible, Harry. Thank you so much for spending your time with us today on The Creator Economy Show. I know, as you know, the marketers and agencies that tune into the show, they would've got a ton of value. So I really appreciate your time and being here today.
Harry Sekhon (31:11):
My pleasure, Danielle. Thank you for having me here.
